Two die in the Ironman at Youghal

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017479#Comment_121017479

there are full and half going on at the same time, the swim had been shortened to a half IM distance, hardly extreme, other than the conditions making it so

The whole point of what has been said on this thread is that they couldn't provide safety in those conditions, you seem to have missed that

so we should blame the event organizers

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017479#Comment_121017479

You seem to base this on what "most trained Iron men" can handle. But someone has to make that assessment, unless you are arguing for a free for all?

They cancelled it on Saturday. By your argument, they could have gone ahead with it regardless of consequences, everything would still have been 'at own risk'. Or what basis would you argue Saturday should have been cancelled?

So there appears to be a line drawn somewhere? The question is whether, if Saturday was unsafe, Sunday was too.

fits

The picture posted by the organisers on the morning of the event announcing the change in course- the sea looked ok. A bit of a swell but fine. I wonder did conditions worsen over the course of the morning.

radiospan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017337#Comment_121017337

I would not say that they had both cleared that section from what I heard about the Strava GPS. The one I heard about looked like he had not cleared the first buoy when he got into trouble. There's a lot of information there about how long he was in the water etc.

unkel

@odyssey06 - "You seem to base this on what "most trained Iron men" can handle. But someone has to make that assessment, unless you are arguing for a free for all?"

Every participant should make that assessment, if they didn't feel safe on Sunday, they shouldn't have started. No organisation can ever guarantee the safety of all participants in an Iron Man event swim in an ocean. And unless it turns out they had not taken adequate safety measures as are the norm in such event, they should not be blamed for anything.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017678#Comment_121017678

Well that's the key point for me: "And unless it turns out they had not taken adequate safety measures as are the norm in such event."

So you accept there is an onus on the organisers to take adequate safety measures.

Yes, the participants should make their own assessment, but if the organisers give the impression it is 'safe' then that will sway \ factor into the individual assessment.

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017678#Comment_121017678

The fact they shortened the swim proves that even the people in charge, with the most to lose by cancelling the event knee the sea was not suitable for the event.

Of course there's personal responsibility at play but that's neither here nor there really.

If I pay money and attend a badly run gig/festival/sporting event where my personal safety is put at risk you can be damn sure the organisers will take the brunt of the responsibility. This is no different.

spc78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017676#Comment_121017676

I've seen the strava track - it looks pretty clear from stroke rate recorded that he got over 1000 yards and was well out of that area

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017678#Comment_121017678

It's fairly clear they could not put those safety measures in place from the video evidence, evidence from spectators and those who took part and the TI statement

And the resultant deaths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015104#Comment_121015104

Not a HSA Inspector, so I’ll leave that to a HSA inspector

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015079#Comment_121015079

The beach is indeed a public venue, and an organised event took place that paid little heed to the adverse weather in an area known for its currents. One known existing danger is enough, only strong swimmers need apply, add another, it’s sadly more likely to be game over for some.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015562#Comment_121015562

If it is a non-sanctioned event due to TI not sanctioning it, would their volunteers/safety teams in the water be insured to be there? Would TI not have a duty of care towards them??

radiospan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017865#Comment_121017865

I haven't seen stroke rate so I might be wrong. We could be talking about different people also. Doesn't feel right to me to analyze it any further.

RIP to both men.

blade1

Tribute for the two men

https://www.96fm.ie/news/96fm-news-and-sport/youghal-swimmers-pay-tribute-to-two-men-who-lost-their-lives-during-ironman/?fbclid=IwAR158KgRFB5iglq1zXNgQe3dOYhFylOVeWij3Lbimr7isgLyJbpDcUQ52rU

griffin100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121018201#Comment_121018201

That’s not quiet how it works in a typical TI sanctioned triathlon (although your general point is correct).

To get TI sanction you need to submit a race safety plan and some other bits. TI sanction the race which means their public liability insurance covers the race and the race is run in line with TI / ITU rules around things like water quality, max swim distance for the water temperature, rules on water and air temperature differential, etc. All racers will need have to have either TI membership or a one day licence from TI to race in a TI sanctioned race.

The organisers of the event source the race director for the event, marshals, safety officers, etc. They run the event on the day.

TI send a technical official and referee to the event and they make sure rules are obeyed and they guide the Race Director who is technically in overall charge. TI’s officials are not full time, they’re usually triathletes who give their time to the sport.

So say the water in a triathlon was too cold for a 1,500m under ITU rules, then the TI referee / technical delegate would tell the Race Director to shorten the swim to whatever the ITU rules deem appropriate for the water temperature. If they declined TI would withdraw sanction and by default insurance for the race and tbh you’d never get approval from TI for another race and that would be a disaster for a club race as you’d never afford the insurance without TI providing it.

I’m not fully positive that it works the same way when TI sanctions an IM race but from talking to people when I did the race in 2019 I think it does.

Ironman as a company turning over 100’s millions of dollars every year can take the risk of telling TI no (not saying that was done here). For a company of that size not having TI insurance is not an issue, they would just depend on a global policy or self insure.

As I mentioned in a earlier post the current President of TI ran his own races without TI sanction for a number of years.

TheW1zard

Wetsuits are for wimps anyway

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121018656#Comment_121018656

I’m specifically talking about their safety staff etc. If TI state it is unsafe to sanction, yet still allow their staff/volunteers to enter the water, what recourse would those people have if something happened to them??

Surely TI can’t say that the water is unsafe, but still send their safety staff and volunteers out in it??

Genghis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019060#Comment_121019060

I think there's a misconception around what TI do.

Typically the TI team would be small, say 2 officials, 1 who will liaise with the RD over a couple of months pre race (checking the race plan and ensuring it's up to scratch) and then on the day do the final sanction (written, co-signed race licence); the second official will be race referee on the day.

These people are not employees, they have to do specific training, but get paid expenses only. They do it to support the sport, very often they are triathletes themselves.

For small events TI may even send only one person (covering everything), for large events (or championship races) there can be say 5 or 6 sent, but the additional people being more involved with referee assistance (drafting enforcement).

TI do NOT provide safety cover in the water or anywhere else, they do NOT marshall the event, and they do not organise any part of the race.

They would make sure that cover is appropriate and in place as part of their assessment / sanction.

@griffin100 above post is excellent too for understanding what TI do.

griffin100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019060#Comment_121019060

As I said in my post the persons on the water or those acting as race safety officers are usually not TI staff or TI volunteers. They are usually engaged directly by the race organisers, in this case IM.

If anyone suffers an injury and they think TI is at fault for their injury they can sue TI irrespective of whether the race is sanctioned by them or not. You can sue any third party if you think they have caused you an injury. That’s how civil claims work.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019150#Comment_121019150

So TI staff leaving the event would not have put competitors in danger. Which flies in the face of some of the comments above

plodder

Don't know anything about the rights and wrongs here, but I just spent a couple of days in the area of Youghal and driving around it really struck me that the event is massively important and valued by everyone living in the area. Like literally almost every business and house in a significant radius (still) has flags and bunting out to support it. I really hope they can learn whatever needs to be learned and can continue to hold the event going forward.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121023315#Comment_121023315

Yes, hopefully if there were safety shortcomings they can be remediated, but it would be terrible if there was another knee-jerk reaction and made it harder to stage events like this in Republic of Ireland. You could argue that the full Iron Man is not a good idea for anyone:

https://www.wired.com/2012/06/endurance-training-heart/

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/coach-blog/athlete-deaths-in-triathlon-and-how-to-prevent-them/

"As well as having almost twice as many deaths as marathons, triathlons differ in another respect—the timing of those deaths. In marathons, deaths usually occur late in the race or just after the finish, whereas for triathlons, the vast majority of deaths happen early, often in the first minutes of the race. This difference can be attributed to the presence of a swim in triathlons and all of the stresses that puts on the heart right at the beginning of the race."

but people should be free to take certain risks, once those risks are made clear to them in advance.

For example, adventure tourism in Ireland is struggling to survive: https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2023/0511/1383107-insurance-costs-crippling-adventure-tourism-say-centre-owners/

"The problems that the Irish adventure tourism sector has with insurance are not replicated elsewhere in Europe, Great Britain or even in Northern Ireland. This is an Irish problem"

PokeHerKing

I saw a much wider scoped video of the swim, previously had only seen the one of everyone entering the water battling the breaking waves.

Complete and utter lunacy. If one person went out swimming in it and required rescuing I'd have said fool putting rescuers at risk.

To see 100s of people in there, unable to stay on course because of conditions was just insane. They're blessed there wasn't numerous more deaths.

nokiatom

The swim went ahead but no one considered the storm the day before. Under normal conditions when the tide is filling the current runs west east parallel to the beach in towards the town. On Saturday the event was cancelled due to the storm. The wind was w/sw. This greatly increases the speed of the current. This increase in speed can last up to three days after the storm. For the average person they would not notice this due to the swells breaking. So when they were swimming out the current was taking them away from the marker they were heading for. This meant you had to swim harder to get to the marker. You also had the swells breaking but this was closer to the beach only. Once they rounded the marker they were now going with the current and most swimmers said they flew into swim end.

sporina

I messaged Iron man to ask why they didn't cancel the event after the 2 men died..

this is the reply I got

.......

While IRONMAN events are physically challenging, the safety and security of athletes is the most important operational element for our events. IRONMAN has extensive and stringent, industry-leading safety guidelines and protocols, honed to the highest international standards, and implemented at events worldwide. The decision to continue the event in the midst of a tragic loss is made with these safety protocols in mind as well as being the most respectful way forward for athletes on course.

Every athlete on the course was completing a personal journey that may have started many months ago and, when factored with further safety risks and challenges potentially being created by stopping the race, it was determined that allowing athletes to continue to progress through the course was the best course of action in this scenario.

...........

So based on that - maybe they just ignored Triathlon Ireland and just went ahead with the event - sanctioned or not

Marty Bird

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121024030#Comment_121024030

I can tell you as a participant in the race that the swim was fine, yes it was choppy getting to the first turn but once reached the current was pushing you back towards the swim exit.

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121024327#Comment_121024327

If that beach had a lifeguard there'd have been a red flag up.

Crazy that a licensed organised event took place imo.

spc78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121024086#Comment_121024086

Bit of a stretch to say no one considered the storm the day before - the 70.3 had already been postponed from the day before!

The day of the race is not the time to be entering the ocean for the first time and realising theres such a thing as a current in the sea - ironmans own beginner ironman training plans have you training for this 6 months out and from 4 months out swimming an ocean swim once a week with probably 6-10km of swimming a week - anyone who is doing that will have no problem.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121024327#Comment_121024327

From your post earlier "I done the full IM yesterday in Cork, the swim was rough at the beginning as you were swimming against the waves but once we hit the first turn buoy and back towards the lighthouse and to shore the tide was with you so it was fine, now I’ve done many of these events and if your nervous in the water I can definitely see how some would panic in those conditions."

I'd guess that you are a strong Ironman athlete, used to rough sea and currents. The problems arising here seem to be more to do with those competing in the half Ironman, lots of personal testimony at this stage that they struggled and in some cases were in fear of their lives. It was the organisers duty to think of all the participants, not just the most capable.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121023987#Comment_121023987

If I was involved in an insurance company indemnifying events like this, I think I'd be pretty disgusted at what went down. That decisions were made that exposed the company to risk well beyond what is normally understood to be at stake in such events.

Ironman Inc is big business and well able to ride that problem. The issue could hit the many related type triathlon and adventure racing/ challenge events that are increasingly common here. I'd guess the organisers and promoters of these must be very concerned at the casual disregard shown for the safety of participants and the possible impact on insuring their events.