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Two die in the Ironman at Youghal

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,666 ✭✭✭prunudo


    We don't know what was said or discussed on the day. What way things were phrased, were different options proposed. The only unambiguous thing about the statement is that they are washing their hands of any wrong doing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,114 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    I don’t think it is.

    it could mean that they refused to sanction the race because they thought the conditions were too dangerous

    it could also mean that they refused to sanction the race because the changes made to it on account of the “adverse conditions” rendered it incompatible with their standards

    Both would be “due to the adverse conditions”.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,519 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    Which is quite understandable considering the tragic outcome.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,522 ✭✭✭valoren


    You're like an armchair meteorologist when you do events like this. With the storm and a postponement already known then people would have been glued to and hungry for any updates. TI not sanctioning wouldn't have gone unnoticed. Between that and basic common sense in digesting the rough sea then more may have simply withdrawn. It's not like Ironman ploughed on because if this info got out then they'd lose money with mass withdrawals since people were already paid up and with a snowballs chance in hell of getting a refund if racers withdrew en masse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,519 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    You are clearly underestimating the seriousness of tonight's statement.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,348 ✭✭✭radiospan


    In their headline, The Irish Times say it was "not sanctioned to go ahead".

    https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/08/21/youghal-ironman-event-not-sanctioned-to-go-ahead-after-water-safety-assessment-by-governing-body/

    Are they going further than the TI statement here? which stops at saying it was "not sanctioned".

    Not fully clear if the TI statement means that it wasn't going to be recognised by them, or if it actually means that it wasn't allowed to go ahead.

    Anyone know?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,114 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    TI had no authority over the event, so it looks like the wording of the headline is just the sub editor misinterpreting the meaning of sanctioning.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,348 ✭✭✭radiospan


    Misleading reporting there so from Irish Times it seems.

    They repeat it in the main paragraph of their article.



  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭Nightwing1862


    And therein lies the ambiguity of their statement. They didn't clarify and ended their statement by saying there'll be no further comment.

    Once something enters the court of public opinion (and this very much has), there always has to be a fall guy. All this statement says to me is that triathlon ireland don't want to be the ones left holding the can. I do find it a bit odd that nobody was aware that they didn't sanction the race until they announced it this evening.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,248 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    What do people think there's ambiguity over?

    It wasn't a triathlon Ireland sanctioned event is the facts of it. As has been said they have no legal authority to prevent it going ahead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭Augme



    There does potentially seem to be ambiguity over if the race was not sanctioned due to the weather conditions, or due to the shortened distance of the swim.TI have worded their statement in such a way that they could argue that since the adverse conditions lead to the shortening of the swim that's then what lead to the sanction.


    Basically its still up in the air if TI said to Iron-man "we can't sanction this event because we think the weather conditions in the water are too dangerous."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,519 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I’ve heard of people who didn’t go when they saw the storm forecast for Friday. And also accounts that it could have been a whole lot worse outcome but that some participants were helping others who were struggling due to the lack of adequate help. That some of the kayakers were finding it hard to cope, capsizing etc. I guess we’ll find out in due course how many dnf the swim but clearly the organisers lost control of the safety element.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭Augme




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,519 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    It's quite a serious topic, you should do your homework.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,068 ✭✭✭Genghis


    From what I know, TI technical officials would not be present, or assess anything about the event, UNLESS Ironman was planning to operate under their sanction.

    I would also say that TI would likely have been willing to sanction a "duathlon" ( no swim) as opposed to cancelling the entire event, something that is not uncommon (Olympic test event in Paris had swim leg cancelled this weekend).

    So if TI failed to approve appropriate sanction for a full race, the race proceeded outside of its own event and safety plan.

    This may mean the event was 'illegal' at least in the sense it's event licence / road closures etc had been granted by Cork CC subject to it being sanctioned by TI.

    It could also have been uninsured, albeit unlikely as Ironman traditionally operated outside of the official sport / NGBs, I would say their insurance would not require NGB sanction.

    What is most certainly the case is that whoever decided not to accept TIs opinion decided to operate outside it's safety plan. That's a huge call.

    Some people commented on why TI did not inform competitors of their decision. Maybe they should have tried but bear in mind the event licence from TI is normally given awarded an hour or so before start, even less where something like variable conditions are at play. Competitors are setting up, in wetsuits, etc, they are not looking at their phones. So TI would not really be able to communicate with members, it would be only be the race itself via their PA / marshal teams who could communicate the event not going ahead.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,561 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    Apparently, it is the most dangerous part of Ironman competitions. Most deaths occur at that stage. Another thing that surprised me - age is not as big a risk factor as I thought.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭Augme



    Sounds like you should do your homework instead.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,368 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,676 ✭✭✭✭fits


    No. It sounds like a horrendous experience.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,688 ✭✭✭Field east


    It is a very sad occasion for the families involved -and on a day when everybody went out to enjoy themselves. ‘One would wonder how the accident actually happened unless it was a major heart attack in both occasions and which there was no coming back from. One need only look at that poor Tipperary hurler who died on the pitch recently. Other Gaelic players - in the prime of their youth - have died in similar circumstances down the years.

    Three things struck me about the swimming element and there has been no mention of them Ie

    (1) I understand that when ANY swimmer thinks that there are in a difficulty on the water and need help that he/she puts one arm up - pointing to the sky. I would assume then that the rescue service would immediately respond.

    (2) I would 100% assume that all the participants are SEASONED swimmers and can all float / thread the water, etc, et , to keep afloat until help comes along

    (3) I would also assume that a good % of the other swimmers would stop to help anyone in difficulty and forego the race


    As they say , we are all experts in hindsight. I sincerely hope that I am not upsetting anyone by bringing up the above but they just ‘crossed my mind



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭Xander10


    Re (1) , it has been stated that there were too many people in the choppy water at the one time and kayaks etc observing were struggling to stay upright.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 307 ✭✭Rmgblue


    Have you read any of the thread at all?

    1 - it’s been pointed out numerous times that the swells rendered it impossible to even spot someone on their back with one arm up. I suspect there was 100’s with arms up at any point

    2 - having completed two half distances myself I can tell you like the majority of people who are new to triathlon come with running and cycling experience more often than not. I myself learned to swim from YouTube. Seasoned swimmers exist of course but this I have no doubt that many down in cork were first timers at 70.3 or full distances.


    3 - again, been discussed that it’s like a washing machine in the water. Been swam over, hit and pulled back often. It’s awful sometimes. Especially when you get caught up with faster swimmers. Of course people stop to help you. I spoke to people who were in the water in cork and some were pulled under trying to help others. Sometimes no one stops too.

    Ironman are an utter disgrace letting this go ahead. And hard to support TI and their statement when they made no effort to relay the info to people on the morning. Iv imagined standing waiting to get into that water and I know I’d be only dieing for someone to pull the plug so I wouldn’t have to. This storm didn’t arrive unannounced that morning. There was plenty of red flags waving for TI and IM to make a call good and early and they didn’t



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,363 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Been involved with watersports all my life and have driven safety boats for countless events, there is no way the kayaks and ribs in the water were going to be able to safely monitor 2000 swimmers in a sea in that state, they are lucky it was only 2 deaths imo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,844 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    RIP to the two contestants.

    It seems a given that there was an increased risk on Sunday for this event, it just remain to be seen during the investigation whether or not the mitigations taken by the organisers were sufficient or not. Taking the TI statement at face value. they would appear to have been inadquate and maybe even reckless



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    The fact that safety teams couldn't operate safely basically means the organisers put the safety of participants to the side. I'd say Ironman Ireland(maybe even TI) are wide open for civil cases over the corners that look to have been cut.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭TokTik


    And yet everyone bar one man made it out of the water unscathed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,363 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    No 2 people died and many others retired during the swim and were picked up by the kayaks and ribs, even if nobody had died it could still have been too unsafe and risky to run in those conditions. If a car is speeding down the road and crashes with no injuries were they being safe simply because nobody was hurt?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    And that's something we should be grateful for cause the conditions described by participants in the Irish Times article was far from standard. In addition to this, safety crews were struggling in the water. Assuming the Triathlon Ireland statement is accurate, this just lends further credence to irresponsible decisions getting made.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭TokTik


    From reports, one was a heart attack once he was exiting the sea. The ones who retired, were helped etc, quite obviously made it out. There is no S&R ongoing.

    Don’t see the issue with it.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,368 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    'no-one died' in normal circumstances is never a good way of saying 'it was therefore safe'

    and in this instance, you can't even say 'no-one died'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    Given the fact that participants rely on Triathlon Ireland insurance, the fact it wasn't sanctioned by them means the event likely wasn't even insured... So ya, many levels of irresponsibility on the organisers part. The fact more didn't die is more a testament to safety workers and luck.


    On top of that, I can't see it taking place again in Youghal so the organisers have fecked up royally. It's something the community loves having.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Most likely one of the considerations for TI releasing their statement last night was to distance themselves from the event and try to protect their current insurance arrangements. Any insurer looking at what happened and hearing/ reading accounts from participants would be pretty concerned that they were unnecessarily exposed to claims. Which could in turn threaten the viability of future triathlons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    TI were directing athletes as they were going out so continued to participate in some way which is a bit odd. Continuing to add to that false sense of security.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,368 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    that could be a difficult situation to be placed in - if you think something is dangerous, do you pull your staff, and possibly make the situation worse? or leave them there and possibly be accused of endorsing the situation?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,363 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Because you quite obviously dont know what you are talking about, if you had ever been out on the sea in those conditions you would understand, also you cant say the heart attack wasnt caused by the strain due to the conditions, we know 2 people died and here you are minimising a heart attack.....

    Imo they are just extremely lucky there wasnt an S&R with 2000 people in the water in those conditions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭thehairygrape


    Hi Gusser09. Your comment is a very common reaction and on the face of it understandable. However, participants in endurance events, and Ironman type challenges in particular, are often in the upper age bracket. Endurance events need a very good aerobic base, something that’s built up over time. An athlete who trains consistently will have this good base, and while they might get slower, they’re well able to finish a full Ironman. Usually, there’s a 17 hr time limit and a well trained older competitor will easily finish in that time. Younger, faster athletes might not even get to the finish line. I myself am in my sixties and had entered the 70.3 in Youghal having done full distance events in my fifties and sixties and would have no problem entering another full Ironman type event. Rest assured I wouldn’t even come in the top twenty in my age category. (Incidentally, I pulled out of Youghal because of torn ligaments in my ankle having tripped over a pot while gardening! Absolutely true story).

    So, with good training, nutrition etc, a fit person in their fifties sixties or seventies would almost be better suited than a younger person just ‘giving it a go’.

    I’ll refrain from commenting on the case in discussion here as the process needs to take place and out of respect to the two people who died and their families.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,503 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    We still don't actually know that the conditions were the cause of either death. Out of the water running to T1 is a pretty high heart rate time at the best of times. Mayhem at a turning point is nothing unusual either, in sea, river or lake triathlon. Biggest thing for me from that report is the moving of the buoy/ turning point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,373 ✭✭✭iwillhtfu


    I was sent another video from a spectator last night and it was pretty distressing.

    I won't share the link but basically a swimmer not 50 meters from shore clearly at risk of drowning and the spectators screaming at water safety to get their attention.

    I would've been one to say the conditions didn't look that bad and that it wasn't a day for weaker swimmers. Seeing that video though I think IM were very lucky (a terrible word I know) the number of fatalities were only 2.

    I think there'll be a line drawn in the sand on this one and I can only hope this doesn't snowball into another insurance crisis for sport. I have seen far too many mtb/road races cancelled due to insurance issues in the past.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,519 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    The headline in today's Irish Times clears up any doubts you had "Event not sanctioned to go ahead after water safety assessment by governing body".

    The rest of the headline makes it quite clear who called the shots "Organisers say water conditions were safe."

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,569 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Madness. Madness on the part of the organisers letting it go ahead and madness on the part of participants jumping into that sea in that state like lemmings.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,998 ✭✭✭griffin100


    I’m a very experienced open water swimmer and triathlete. I’ve done numerous long distance races and marathon swims. I’ve also acted as race safety officer at medium sized(500+) participants.  I wasn’t in Cork but in looking at the photos and videos and reading the reports the swim conditions looked very borderline for a triathlon. To me they looked worse than 2019 when the swim was cancelled (I did do that race). 


    I swim Leinster Open Sea races and those conditions would probably have been ok for that type of race (as long as the safety boats could safely operate) where in the main you have experienced open water swimmers not depending on wetsuits for buoyancy / support and who haven’t been training for months across three disciplines or paid €700 to enter and so aren’t under pressure to race on the day. 


    A lot of people who enter IM races are poor inexperienced swimmers and can’t deal with the sorts of conditions encountered over the weekend. Whilst that’s not the way it should be that’s the reality and Ironman know this. They sell a bullshit narrative to novices about the Ironman journey and anything is possible and so people believe it. Poor swimmers need to be protected from themselves by competent water safety officials (not saying the two who died were poor swimmers, I’m making a general observation). 


    There were other issues from looking at he footage 

    - that swim entry was not a safe starting point for that many swimmers IMO

    -the course buoys were red and so were many of the swimmers hats, which when combined with high waves makes sighting extremely difficult

    -safety boats were struggling in the conditions, which for a race should mean cancellation 


    Ironman don’t need TI’s approval to run a race, but it gets them access to the Irish triathlon clubs and volunteers to marshal the race; TI then get a load of money in return in the form of one day race licences. Sure the President of TI used to run his long distance races without TI sanction.


    What happened was desperately sad, and if these deaths were due to drowning then Ironman and TI have a lot to answer for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,719 ✭✭✭Gusser09




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭TokTik


    If I thought the sea was too dangerous to swim in, NEWSFLASH, I wouldn’t go into it. These people weren’t marched in at gunpoint. They all assessed the danger and ran into the water of their own free will.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,087 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    even i, a person with no experience in this field, could see, those sea conditions were just too dangerous, i think there should be legal cases taken here!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    And responsibility still goes back on the organisers if the conditions were unsafe and they chose to continue the event. This tends to be one of the reasons why the likes of running clubs and such prefer locally organised events. They actually care about getting permission to host again the following year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,170 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    If you are not familiar with the sea or sea swimming you would not be a good judge of what sea conditions are safe vs unsafe to swim in.

    1000 experienced sea swimmers would have been absolutely fine in that. 100 pool swimmers would absolutely not have been.

    IM cant really be held responsible for participants not being good enough swimmers, however they absolutely to have responsibility to ensure safety cover is able to function. In that kind of swell and onshore waves & wind!!, kayak cover is incredibly difficult to do. This is the key part where IM could be found liable - how the sea conditions impacted safety cover.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Where are people getting these numbers?

    There wasn't even 2000 competing. They were let into the water over 90 mins, and most would have been out in under 30 mins.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    What does "sanctioned" mean in this context? TI isn't a safety body, they don't need to give their blessing to IM at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,363 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Ahh so your one of those people who likes to blame the victims....



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