Two die in the Ironman at Youghal

I don’t think it is.

it could mean that they refused to sanction the race because they thought the conditions were too dangerous

it could also mean that they refused to sanction the race because the changes made to it on account of the “adverse conditions” rendered it incompatible with their standards

Both would be “due to the adverse conditions”.

You're like an armchair meteorologist when you do events like this. With the storm and a postponement already known then people would have been glued to and hungry for any updates. TI not sanctioning wouldn't have gone unnoticed. Between that and basic common sense in digesting the rough sea then more may have simply withdrawn. It's not like Ironman ploughed on because if this info got out then they'd lose money with mass withdrawals since people were already paid up and with a snowballs chance in hell of getting a refund if racers withdrew en masse.

In their headline, The Irish Times say it was "not sanctioned to go ahead".

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/08/21/youghal-ironman-event-not-sanctioned-to-go-ahead-after-water-safety-assessment-by-governing-body/

Are they going further than the TI statement here? which stops at saying it was "not sanctioned".

Not fully clear if the TI statement means that it wasn't going to be recognised by them, or if it actually means that it wasn't allowed to go ahead.

Anyone know?

Misleading reporting there so from Irish Times it seems.

They repeat it in the main paragraph of their article.

What do people think there's ambiguity over?

It wasn't a triathlon Ireland sanctioned event is the facts of it. As has been said they have no legal authority to prevent it going ahead.

Did you see the conditions?

No.

From what I know, TI technical officials would not be present, or assess anything about the event, UNLESS Ironman was planning to operate under their sanction.

I would also say that TI would likely have been willing to sanction a "duathlon" ( no swim) as opposed to cancelling the entire event, something that is not uncommon (Olympic test event in Paris had swim leg cancelled this weekend).

So if TI failed to approve appropriate sanction for a full race, the race proceeded outside of its own event and safety plan.

This may mean the event was 'illegal' at least in the sense it's event licence / road closures etc had been granted by Cork CC subject to it being sanctioned by TI.

It could also have been uninsured, albeit unlikely as Ironman traditionally operated outside of the official sport / NGBs, I would say their insurance would not require NGB sanction.

What is most certainly the case is that whoever decided not to accept TIs opinion decided to operate outside it's safety plan. That's a huge call.

Some people commented on why TI did not inform competitors of their decision. Maybe they should have tried but bear in mind the event licence from TI is normally given awarded an hour or so before start, even less where something like variable conditions are at play. Competitors are setting up, in wetsuits, etc, they are not looking at their phones. So TI would not really be able to communicate with members, it would be only be the race itself via their PA / marshal teams who could communicate the event not going ahead.

Sounds like you should do your homework instead.

No. It sounds like a horrendous experience.

Re (1) , it has been stated that there were too many people in the choppy water at the one time and kayaks etc observing were struggling to stay upright.

Been involved with watersports all my life and have driven safety boats for countless events, there is no way the kayaks and ribs in the water were going to be able to safely monitor 2000 swimmers in a sea in that state, they are lucky it was only 2 deaths imo.

The fact that safety teams couldn't operate safely basically means the organisers put the safety of participants to the side. I'd say Ironman Ireland(maybe even TI) are wide open for civil cases over the corners that look to have been cut.

No 2 people died and many others retired during the swim and were picked up by the kayaks and ribs, even if nobody had died it could still have been too unsafe and risky to run in those conditions. If a car is speeding down the road and crashes with no injuries were they being safe simply because nobody was hurt?

From reports, one was a heart attack once he was exiting the sea. The ones who retired, were helped etc, quite obviously made it out. There is no S&R ongoing.

Don’t see the issue with it.

Given the fact that participants rely on Triathlon Ireland insurance, the fact it wasn't sanctioned by them means the event likely wasn't even insured... So ya, many levels of irresponsibility on the organisers part. The fact more didn't die is more a testament to safety workers and luck.

On top of that, I can't see it taking place again in Youghal so the organisers have fecked up royally. It's something the community loves having.

TI were directing athletes as they were going out so continued to participate in some way which is a bit odd. Continuing to add to that false sense of security.

Because you quite obviously dont know what you are talking about, if you had ever been out on the sea in those conditions you would understand, also you cant say the heart attack wasnt caused by the strain due to the conditions, we know 2 people died and here you are minimising a heart attack.....

Imo they are just extremely lucky there wasnt an S&R with 2000 people in the water in those conditions.

We still don't actually know that the conditions were the cause of either death. Out of the water running to T1 is a pretty high heart rate time at the best of times. Mayhem at a turning point is nothing unusual either, in sea, river or lake triathlon. Biggest thing for me from that report is the moving of the buoy/ turning point.

The headline in today's Irish Times clears up any doubts you had "Event not sanctioned to go ahead after water safety assessment by governing body".

The rest of the headline makes it quite clear who called the shots "Organisers say water conditions were safe."

I’m a very experienced open water swimmer and triathlete. I’ve done numerous long distance races and marathon swims. I’ve also acted as race safety officer at medium sized(500+) participants.  I wasn’t in Cork but in looking at the photos and videos and reading the reports the swim conditions looked very borderline for a triathlon. To me they looked worse than 2019 when the swim was cancelled (I did do that race). 

I swim Leinster Open Sea races and those conditions would probably have been ok for that type of race (as long as the safety boats could safely operate) where in the main you have experienced open water swimmers not depending on wetsuits for buoyancy / support and who haven’t been training for months across three disciplines or paid €700 to enter and so aren’t under pressure to race on the day. 

A lot of people who enter IM races are poor inexperienced swimmers and can’t deal with the sorts of conditions encountered over the weekend. Whilst that’s not the way it should be that’s the reality and Ironman know this. They sell a bullshit narrative to novices about the Ironman journey and anything is possible and so people believe it. Poor swimmers need to be protected from themselves by competent water safety officials (not saying the two who died were poor swimmers, I’m making a general observation). 

There were other issues from looking at he footage 

- that swim entry was not a safe starting point for that many swimmers IMO

-the course buoys were red and so were many of the swimmers hats, which when combined with high waves makes sighting extremely difficult

-safety boats were struggling in the conditions, which for a race should mean cancellation 

Ironman don’t need TI’s approval to run a race, but it gets them access to the Irish triathlon clubs and volunteers to marshal the race; TI then get a load of money in return in the form of one day race licences. Sure the President of TI used to run his long distance races without TI sanction.

What happened was desperately sad, and if these deaths were due to drowning then Ironman and TI have a lot to answer for.

If I thought the sea was too dangerous to swim in, NEWSFLASH, I wouldn’t go into it. These people weren’t marched in at gunpoint. They all assessed the danger and ran into the water of their own free will.

And responsibility still goes back on the organisers if the conditions were unsafe and they chose to continue the event. This tends to be one of the reasons why the likes of running clubs and such prefer locally organised events. They actually care about getting permission to host again the following year.

Where are people getting these numbers?

There wasn't even 2000 competing. They were let into the water over 90 mins, and most would have been out in under 30 mins.

Ahh so your one of those people who likes to blame the victims....