Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Shehal · 06-07-2023 01:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120812749#Comment_120812749

I think there's alot wrong about this. Playing 5 games for a country and then jumping ship like it meant nothing and taking 5 caps & a RWC spot that could have gone to a much more deserving i.e Devin Toner its a major issue actually. How so many out there are okay with this I find astounding, if roles were reverse and it was an Irish player taking 5 Boks caps and then defecting back to Ireland I can promise you the SA rugby public would be far from forgiving.

ionadnapóca · 06-07-2023 01:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120812709#Comment_120812709

I hold no grudge against him and didn't see it as an insult either. We would all know his background here.

Irish rugby are paying his wages and he spoke previously about the impact of his selection 2019 RWC & 'the backlash' (from total idiots I add). I would have thought with those considerations he would have given a better...or more mature response.

Podge_irl · 06-07-2023 01:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120812927#Comment_120812927

The SA public do a lot of things I'm happy the Irish public don't do as much.

I don't get the issue at all. The coach at the time didn't think Toner was more deserving and what exactly did you expect Kleyn to do? Look into the future and say "nah, WR might change the regulations, I might be able to play for SA after not playing for Ireland for a few years while the coach doesn't call me into the squad, and then SA might have injury problems and I'll get called up so I better not play international rugby now".

phog · 06-07-2023 01:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120812927#Comment_120812927

I think most player that grew up in a country would prefer to play for that country, would Ben Healy prefer to play for Ireland, almost certainly, would Ian McKinley prefer to play for Ireland, almost certainly, would CJ Stander have preferred to play for SA, almost certainly.

The fact that Ireland didn't want Kleyn anymore means he can go back playing for his home country.

At this stage we've used probably 10-20 players who played for Ireland that were born and grew up playing rugby in another country. If you accept a country using project/granny rules then you really can't have a complaint about a player using transfer rules.

Former Former Former · 06-07-2023 01:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120812930#Comment_120812930

I honestly don't remember much 'backlash' against Kleyn in 2019.

Like, there was the usual pearl-clutching about project players but very little specific to him. No different to Roux, Payne, Stander, Lowe, etc.

It was obvious that Joe just wanted rid of Toner, if it wasn't Kleyn it would have been someone else.

Best of luck to him anyway.

ionadnapóca · 06-07-2023 01:32PM

'backlash'

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/jean-kleyn-i-d-love-to-play-internationals-again-it-s-an-incredible-honour-1.4699811

jacothelad · 06-07-2023 01:38PM

It's not really surprising that this exposes the small minded, lack of generosity of spirit of a, thankfully, small number of posters. I wish him all the best. I hope it works out for him and his family both in Ireland and in SA. If Ireland don't win the RWC I'd be delighted if he got a winners medal.

salmocab · 06-07-2023 01:40PM

I’m not keen on the rule, it shouldn’t be allowed between tier 1 nations but I’d have no beef with this particular move and certainly not his comments. Good luck to him.

sydthebeat · 06-07-2023 01:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120812927#Comment_120812927

complete petty rubbish that doesnt even deserve a response. Theres nothing to "forgive".

Kleyn is surplus to requirements in ireland, World Rugby have a facility for him to play for his home country. More power to him for taking his opportunity to get capped for his home nation.

and for "context"

Shehal · 06-07-2023 01:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120812988#Comment_120812988

They do but they seem to have much more respect for their national team than we do based on this, we are basically okay with a player trying on a jersey to see if it fits and then jump ship as soon as someone else comes calling.

I would expect Kleyn to turn it down unless he was fully committed like any person with integrity would do, this situation proves he was never Irish so what's he doing playing for Ireland? What I would expect is for him to do what JGP, Lowe etc did and stick to their decision rather than jump ship as soon as their country of birth came calling.

Shehal · 06-07-2023 01:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813104#Comment_120813104

Completely true though. Should never have taken the call up in 2019 or accepted a spot at the RWC if he wasnt fully committed.

Shehal · 06-07-2023 01:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813064#Comment_120813064

You mean people who actually have enough respect for the Irish jersey? You seem its okay to just take afew caps and then run back home when it suits.

Shehal · 06-07-2023 01:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813023#Comment_120813023

They may do but as soon as they take a cap from their adopted country that should be that. If McKinley or Healy take a cap for Scotland or Italy then best of luck to them but I would be disappointed in them if they decide to then turn back and switch to Ireland if things started going well to the point they would be good enough for Irish selection. I don't really care if Stander would prefer to play for SA, the fact is even when he was amazing he never gave less than 100% commitment for Ireland which Kleyn clearly doesn't know about.

Well if he was loyal to his new adopted country he should try harder to force his way into the squad, rather than take the easy option and play for his original country just because its "easier". Show's up his loyalty.

Like I said I dont care, those players didnt play for another nation and then switch to Ireland, its different circumstances to this.

Podge_irl · 06-07-2023 01:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813118#Comment_120813118

They do but they seem to have much more respect for their national team than we do based on this, we are basically okay with a player trying on a jersey to see if it fits and then jump ship as soon as someone else comes calling.

He hasn't been picked for 4 years and there is no indication he is going to be anytime soon. He didn't jump ship "as soon as they came calling" and its an utterly absurd framing.

He was fully committed in 2019. Ireland no longer wanted him and you expect him to just sit on his ass and ignore his home country's call? Its childish fantasy stuff.

Shehal · 06-07-2023 01:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813064#Comment_120813064

Also im not small minded but thanks. Good dog!

Podge_irl · 06-07-2023 01:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813173#Comment_120813173

You are aware that there is a 3 year stand-down period right?

Mr Tickle · 06-07-2023 01:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813070#Comment_120813070

Yeah this is pretty much my thoughts on it too.

Years ago I heard a case being made by some organization that was representing players from the pacific islands. They made a very good case about the imbalance between the contribution of their players to the world game and their home countries' international teams. It was a very sensible argument around the scale of economic opportunity that going to play oversees represented. They talked about the amount of money that some of these guys would be sending home to help their extended families etc.

In cases like that, the choice to represent another country just isn't the same as a player who's moved between two tier 1 countries.

I was glad that world rugby decided to keep the clause saying that they would have to approve each transfer, but I had hoped that that would be their way of preventing tier 1 countries from benefiting. You don't want to see guys using lower ranked countries as a shop window to get a look in at home.

All that being said, I don't for a second think that it was a cynical move by Kleyn, and I don't begrudge wanting to play for SA. He's earned it through his performances this year. I just don't think that the rules should allow him to and I hope it doesn't become too common.

Shehal · 06-07-2023 02:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813188#Comment_120813188

Yes I am, what's you're point?

Podge_irl · 06-07-2023 02:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813200#Comment_120813200

That its impossible for anyone to change country "when someone else comes calling". 3 years out of playing international is a large chunk of a player's career.

He has been out of the international picture for basically 4 years now. Ireland don't want him, so what the hell does it matter to anyone if he goes to play for SA? Perhaps he was far more committed to Ireland in 2019 than Ireland was committed to him.

Shehal · 06-07-2023 02:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813176#Comment_120813176

Well then he show try harder to change the coaches mind. Once he chose Ireland he should have stayed committed and seen it through, these rules were put in places for tier 2 nations to get some of their players back, not situations like this. It isnt absurd, this is the first season he's shown he's good enough for test level and as soon as he does and the Bok's came calling it was bye bye.

He wasn't committed, he just wanted to play test rugby and he used us at the expense of a far better and more loyal player in Toner just because he was beefier and Joe Schmidt had lost his marbles at that point.

I would expect him to actually, he made his choice so he should honour it and try get himself into the Irish squad.

Shehal · 06-07-2023 02:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813233#Comment_120813233

Well then maybe he should try playing better.

Well too bad, he took those Irish caps in 2019 so now he should honour it by turning down SA when they come calling. Well Ireland gave him far more than he could ever give Ireland so he can have no complaints.

phog · 06-07-2023 02:09PM

Omg there's always ONE

Podge_irl · 06-07-2023 02:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813255#Comment_120813255

When he "took" the caps he would have had to turn down any offer from SA. The rules changed after that time. So he was 100% committed when he did it. I also don't particularly think the rules should allow swaps between tier 1 nations, but its absurd in the extreme to expect someone to forego the chance if it is there.

After 4 years in the wilderness someone wanted him and someone didn't. Pretty easy choice.

Shehal · 06-07-2023 02:11PM

Okay this is a mess, lets move from talking about that Saffer.

ionadnapóca · 06-07-2023 02:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813270#Comment_120813270

A very easy choice for Kleyn. No argument (from most)

However, the rule change....needs another change!

I'd be very surprised if Kleyn actually makes the SA WC squad all the same.

aloooof · 06-07-2023 02:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813036#Comment_120813036

I honestly don't remember much 'backlash' against Kleyn in 2019.

There definitely was; there’ll always be a cohort on social media that will stick the knife in, but in this case there was also at least one prominent journalist for the paper of record that followed suit, with some pretty mean-spirited stuff.

Podge_irl · 06-07-2023 02:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813330#Comment_120813330

I agree on all counts.

But none of this is really his problem.

06-07-2023 02:33PM

It's an odd one. I never liked the idea of players moving just to play for another country and when this was extended out to a 5 year requirement I thought that was fair enough.

At a certain point you should be allowed to represent your adopted home and I don't begrudge any of the players that have moved here and now or previously represented Ireland. In Kleyn's situation he's no longer representing his adoptive home (where he earned the right to represent Ireland) to go and play for the country he grew up in but doesn't live now.

I think mindset is a big part of this, the entire Irish team plays for teams in Ireland - this is not the way South Africa operates so Kleyn not living there is entirely normal. I think people would be less perturbed from an Ireland POV if he was going to play for the Stormers next season. Similarly when I heard of this rule I wasn't thinking about tier 1 to tier 1 traffic, but on reflection a rule can't be available to some but not to all.

The other mindset aspect is that a fair few will be defensive or critical around this depending on the province they support but in reality it's only an issue if it impacts team Ireland. I don't think Kleyn was particularly near the Irish 23 and I don't think he'll have much insight to offer Erasmus about team Ireland so I'm not overly bothered.

aloooof · 06-07-2023 02:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813420#Comment_120813420

Similarly when I heard of this rule I wasn't thinking about tier 1 to tier 1 traffic, but on reflection a rule can't be available to some but not to all.

I’d agree with a lot of that, Venjur

I’d guess World Rugby probably weren’t thinking about Tier 1 to Tier 1 traffic either; it seems like a rule designed to help Tier 2 Nations.

I’d also add to the above tho that, if these edge cases are the downside to that rule change, then it’s still sufficiently worth it.

(And I’m not even convinced it is a downside, and am delighted for Kleyn tbh.I feel his performances have merited it).

ionadnapóca · 06-07-2023 02:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813393#Comment_120813393

He has to do what he feels is right, of course.

It's the logical step for him and I assume he has factored in that he wont be getting a renewal offer of similar value from Munster/Irfu as he did in Jan '22.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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