new underhand style of moderation

beachhead · 08-06-2023 2:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058299853/new-underhand-style-of-moderation

I have noticed the same happening very recently.Also,the moderators seem to be taking a much more active part in commenting on threads-sometimes helpful,sometimes of no consequence to the queries put forward,more like getting there post "score" up than anything else

Big Bag of Chips · 08-06-2023 3:14pm

There is no policy of 'secretive' and 'underhand' moderation. But I suppose it creates a catchy thread title!

It is something that has been, and can be again, discussed with moderators. Boards.ie is a huge collection of forums and hundreds of moderators. Not all forums are equal, just like not all moderators are equal. We can once again encourage moderators, where feasible, to leave a transparent note regarding moderator action.

But just to be perfectly clear, there is no policy, there is no grand plan or agreement to make things secretive and difficult. But maybe there is scope there to improve transparency.

Fact still remains, if you see a moderator action that you would like to question please do so via PM. If you don't know the specific moderator to PM them send a PM to any/all moderators of the particular forum and your issue will be addressed.

odyssey06 · 08-06-2023 3:17pm

@sydthebeat I think used a more apt word in the thread "obscure".

The mod actions have definitely become more obscure \ less transparent since the move.

Also more obscure is the list of moderators of a forum.

Furze99 · 08-06-2023 3:18pm

Yep, seen it happening - very odd and you wonder if your memory was faulty. Stuff just disappears. Not the only site this happens though, and at least there is some answerability here. Used to post quite regular on a music interest site and the person who ran than place was a dictator, to the extent that many people just left in a huff or drifted away. It's how you wreck a very good site with a decent community.

08-06-2023 3:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689960#Comment_120689960

It depends on how soon after the initial post was the edit made. If the edit is made before a certain time period has passed, no edit message will show up. Not sure what the exact time is, but it's between 5 and 20 minutes.

It's still technically possible to see the details of the edit using the API (although just when and who, not the original post text): https://www.boards.ie/api/v2/comments?commentId=120689927&expand=all

Varik · 08-06-2023 3:45pm

Can't argue against it if there's no warning and don't even know who deleted it, which is probably the point.

The notification system really shows how often posts are getting deleted, the notification stays even if the posts are gone. Often enough I'll click the notification later in the day and it'll end up on error page about the post.

If its the multiple new post notification, says 5/10/ect post you still get it. Not sure if it's post 1 that was delete or if any of the new post getting deleted does it.

Flaneur OBrien · 08-06-2023 4:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690823#Comment_120690823

just on your last paragraph, I have had an incident where I have reported the same post 3 times and no action has been taken and no mods will discuss why it has not been actioned on.

I have PM’ed all the mods, but the most I have gotten is

We do not give feedback to reporters However what I can say, as I have said in numerous threads in Help desk and Feedback, is if we felt action was appropriate that would usually result in a post deletion

In my opinion, that’s ridiculous. A poster had made something up about me, I pointed out how incorrect they were, which they just ignored. And the mods won’t engage with me to take the offending post down.

I then got a warning when I called out the poster as a liar.

That wouldn’t have happened if the post had been properly moderated.

Sorry, it just grinds my gears when an admin like yourself and others don’t take complaints seriously. If you did, you would’t have opened with the quite sarcastic, “But I suppose it makes a catchy thread title!” line.

JohnJoFitz · 08-06-2023 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691062#Comment_120691062

Moderators probably have a a pain from the same twats reporting posts and whining all day long.

"PM'ed all the mods" - LOL

Flaneur OBrien · 08-06-2023 5:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691404#Comment_120691404

Then they shouldn’t be mods, eh?

JohnJoFitz · 08-06-2023 5:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691408#Comment_120691408

They are volunteers with limited time. Stop annoying them with your nonsense.

sydthebeat · 08-06-2023 5:27pm

yeah ive no problem at all in describing the removal of posts without notification, admission, or any evidence as being "secretive" and "underhand" ... its literally the definition of this. as can be seen from some of teh responses, its how regular posters see view these actions.

im asking if its a policy, and BBoC has said above that its not a policy, fair enough.

could we actually have a policy to the opposite please...... as existed previously ?

Flaneur OBrien · 08-06-2023 5:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691425#Comment_120691425

I was a mod here for over 20 years. I’m well aware of what being a mod is like.

ohnonotgmail · 08-06-2023 5:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690823#Comment_120690823

Just on that. It was suggested some time ago that a list of all mods/admins for each forum would be compiled and made available. that seems to have fallen off the radar. is there any plan to complete it?

Shield · 08-06-2023 6:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691439#Comment_120691439

It's the second sticky on this forum but it needs constant updating as mods come and go, and that would be an admin job. Me and Spear wouldn't be informed of such things.

For convenience, here it is:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058234282/list-of-forum-mods-and-category-mods-updated-10-02-2023

-Shield

Ten of Swords · 08-06-2023 6:33pm

Just giving my 2 cents on this

Some forums are quieter than others and moderators have time to explain decisions or post mod notes. Some forums are extremely busy and fast moving and it is simply not feasible to expect every single action to be explained.

again, respectfully, this isnt acceptable. it should be minimum policy for all moderation actions to be explained at the point of action. if a moderators hasnt the time to do this then again i suggest maybe they shouldnt be the one taking the action. surely all forum moderators talk to each other in pm groups. how quick would it be for a mod to drop a om into a group saying " lads the X forum is a bit of a shitshow right now, i havent time to deal, can someone else take it please".

all pms send an email notification, so the other mods will be notified immediately that something needs to happen

The above is possibly the ideal scenario, a "nice to have", however the reality of moderating the extremely busy forums like AH, CA and Covid make that impractical. If I look at the list of reported posts requiring action in the forums I moderate there is a substantial list that needs looking at any time of the day or night. I just took a look now and there have been 25 reports made about CA posts in the last 4 hours (since about 2pm) that need to be looked at and a mod will need to decide what action, if any, is required for each of them.

As volunteers the mods pick up reported posts whenever we are online, it is not a set schedule. CA has several moderators who pick up reported posts with varying degrees of activity. 2 very active moderators online several times a day and others who get involved when things get busy. Recruiting moderators is also not a straightforward task, especially for a forum like CA.

As for deleting posts;

In some cases deleting a post is the most practical solution where it is off topic or otherwise in need of action but not serious enough to warrant a warning. In addition, Vanilla has also simplified some of the functionality we used to have on vBulletin unfortunately. An example of this is the yellow/red card system on the old platform. These cards were visible to all users once a moderator issued one. On the current platform they are only visible to moderators (as a reddish band across the top of the post). We learned pretty quickly that posters, unable to see this red band, frequently thought that no action had been taken and would report the post over and over again so we also often delete posts even when a warning has been issued for this reason.

To reiterate what BBoC said above, this is not new (it was done on the old platform too) and it is not a policy (just a practical necessity for busy forums as I have outlined above)

sydthebeat · 08-06-2023 6:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691693#Comment_120691693

thats a fine and understandable explanation of the current situation ToS, but it really doesn't do anything to address the issue.

do you accept that

the removal of posts without explanation is a problem for forum posters?
it actually leads to more work for moderators when the "line" being crossed is not visible
its causes an unnecessary antagonistic relationship between posters and moderators

just because this is the way it happens now doesnt mean its the best way going forward.

the few posts above by shield shows that its very easy to edit posts and provide warnings within the posts.

to claim that it takes too much time to do this just isnt really a good enough excuse, as there doesn't seem to be any standard across the board as to what should be deleted, what should be edited, and what should be left with warning etc. You yourself above have just said that its simply the easiest option for the mod to delete the post and leave. Its obvious that a large number of mods simply take this easiest option as their default mod action.

as a long term poster here i would like to state that really, that's not good enough. its something which is to the detriment of the site and something i seriously think needs to be addressed and a standard policy should be applied across all moderators on the whole site. Essentially you all should have a set of rules you adhere to as well.

Big Bag of Chips · 08-06-2023 7:08pm

Sorry, it just grinds my gears when an admin like yourself and others don’t take complaints seriously.

I have addressed the complaint. Twice in this thread. In my last post I said it is something that has, and can be again addressed with moderators. I said we can once again encourage moderators to leave a note when posts are deleted to make it more transparent.

How more seriously would you like me to take it?

Also feedback has never been given on reported posts. Ever. As mentioned above Current Affairs forum could have 50+ reports in a day. Moderators are volunteers, with lives and jobs. It would simply be impossible to give feedback on every report. Not all reported posts will need to be actioned. There are procedures in place if you have a complaint about anything that are open to every poster on the site. If you feel a moderator is not addressing a genuine issue a category moderator will look into it for you.

Big Bag of Chips · 08-06-2023 7:28pm

its causes an unnecessary antagonistic relationship between posters and moderators

Just on this point, moderators on this site are posters too. However some posters like to be unnecessarily antagonistic in any interactions with moderators. For what reason, I don't know.

I am part of a pretty solid moderator team on a couple of forums here. A team, it is fair to say, who are reasonable and fair in their decisions. They don't unnecessarily antagonise anyone and try to be fair to everyone on the forum. Yet repeatedly we get reported posts which are personally insulting and snide towards ordinary people volunteering their time to try keep a forum functioning. And these very same posters then complain about moderators causing an unnecessary antagonistic relationship! It has to work both ways. People in general are angrier, and they feel increasingly entitled to just throw random abuse without considering who will be reading it.

Sometimes, it is necessary to delete posts. Sometimes if the poster is honest with themselves they'll have a fairly good idea why their post was deleted. Yes, in an ideal world a note should be left. When you're chasing a fast moving thread trying to clear up a mess leaving a note might not be the top priority.

This is something we will encourage moderators to do, where feasible.

Shield · 08-06-2023 7:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691404#Comment_120691404

Mod: Don't quote posters if all you have to offer by way of reply is "LOL".

-Shield

Ten of Swords · 08-06-2023 7:44pm

You yourself above have just said that its simply the easiest option for the mod to delete the post and leave. Its obvious that a large number of mods simply take this easiest option as their default mod action.

I didn't. I said-

In some cases deleting a post is the most practical solution where it is off topic or otherwise in need of action but not serious enough to warrant a warning

Far easier to issue a warning, but if the post isn't quite deserving of a warning then it will likey either be seen by the poster as mods overreaching or taking a heavy handed approach, or the warning would simply not stand up in a DRP

Beasty · 08-06-2023 7:56pm

Another angle to throw in here

A re-reg troll posted in this thread. I banned them and deleted all their content. In this case it was a single post and I can refer to it here. I would not normally make any reference and would have deleted any replies without comment if seen. These trolls get no oxygen from me. And when deleting all content of a poster like that there is actually no audit trail of where and what they posted. As I say in this case there was a single post that I can refer to here to help illustrate my point

Now I try and deal with all PMs from users. That takes a lot of time. In fact I find it takes a large proportion of my time on this site. I have said repeatedly in this forum and in Feedback, both pre and post migration - if I am deleting a post any notification to any relevant posters will be very much the exception. I am not going to open up PM discussions. If a poster wishes go PM me about it I will engage. I really do not think I would have time to do so if I notified posters every time I delete their quote of a re-reg troll, or indeed a chain of posts replying to an abusive comment or something that otherwise breaches site rules

And to put a bit of context re the quantity of potential PM discussions that may flow - the busiest thread in CA, The Russia one, has had around 1,600 posts deleted. The Biden thread 370. Trump 540. The Gangland Shootings thread 530, The Schofield thread 100.

sydthebeat · 08-06-2023 8:04pm

No one is asking for a pm when a post is deleted

All I'm suggesting is it would be better, where appropriate, to edit the post to say you've removed the offending remark and why.

Say for example something that a mod considers off topic.

The post is removed. The poster doesn't know why, and would only see that it's removed if they review. So they are left then not knowing who removed it and why.

Surely, and obviously, it would be better just to edit the post with "post removed. Off topic - mod x"

Who is that such a difficult thing for they mods to take on board?

Big Bag of Chips · 08-06-2023 8:35pm

Because editing each individual post with a comment (even if copied and pasted) can take much much longer than batch selecting the 25-50-100 posts that need to be deleted and clicking "Delete" and removing them all in one go.

I have had to delete multiple posts in forums. I have had to start at the first offending post, then read through every post on the thread following to see who referenced it, quoted it, replied to it, argued with it etc. I have simply selected each post that needed to be deleted and deleted them. And even that takes quite an amount of time. A thread full of edited posts saying "post removed. Off Topic" would quickly become very tiresome for posters scrolling through, and it wouldn't look good on the thread to have post after post saying "post removed".

Actually removing the posts is a far cleaner, simpler and efficient way of dealing with posts that shouldn't be on the thread.

Yes, one post after all that to say "Off-topic posts deleted" would be very helpful, and in fairness is something moderators regularly use. But editing each individual post rather than deleting is not something I would be in favour of. It would quickly lead to feedback threads asking why are there 100s of "post removed" posts and why are they not just removed altogether.

ohnonotgmail · 08-06-2023 9:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692169#Comment_120692169

I don't think anybody is asking for the offending post and all the posts that quote it to be edited. Edit the offending post to say that it is being removed and all posts that quote it will be deleted.

Big Bag of Chips · 08-06-2023 9:33pm

But that's assuming there's 1 offending posts and only all replies to it are problematic.

There could be a large number of unrelated posts that need to be deleted. Off topic, petty arguments, backseat modding, personal abuse, etc. I think editing posts with "Post removed" will lead to an awful lot of edited posts PLUS deleted posts.

I suppose it's something to consider and might be worth trialing, but it would really be up to the moderators in those busy, fast moving forums to decide whether they think it is a workable solution in their particular forum.

Already moderators do leave "off topic posts deleted" notes occasionally. I think this should suffice rather than editing individual posts to say they've been deleted.

As I said, I'm open to considering it, if moderators think it is workable and will be a benefit rather than a hindrance.

nachouser · 08-06-2023 9:43pm

It might also be worth considering closing threads when the OP of the thread has been banned. Not retrospectively, but just to close down such threads in the future. If they've gotten themselves banned from their own thread with their a-few-days-old account posting in CA, well...

Beasty · 08-06-2023 9:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692474#Comment_120692474

The problem with that particular thread is it is a very valid discussion. I would normally have done a "delete all" with that particular re-reg, but that thread is the reason I did not. There is so much content already in the thread and closing it would take away further discussion of many points already made, or repeating such discussion in a new thread

A lot of that poster's posts have been deleted already and we continue working through reports from that thread in particular

Packrat · 08-06-2023 9:59pm

"Busy fast moving forums"

I dunno, I'm just not buying it...

When the site had multiples of its current user base, mods didn't have to resort to just deleting posts without comment or otherwise.

Most of the forums are tumbleweed.

Contrary to what Beasty tries to imply, - it's not just rereg trolls who get their comments deleted either, it's happening on a widespread basis recently.

nachouser · 08-06-2023 10:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692509#Comment_120692509

Fair enough.

Beasty · 09-06-2023 1:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692565#Comment_120692565

I never tried to imply anything of the sort. I even gave numbers of posts deleted from specific threads in my earlier post. My underlying message was nothing whatsoever to do with re-reg trolls. It was entirely to do with the amount of time I spend engaging with posters on this site and the fact I do not feel any kind of obligation to engage further than I currently do

new underhand style of moderation

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