new underhand style of moderation

sydthebeat

its been quite noticeable recently that there appears to be a new moderation style of clandestine removal of posts in threads,m without any acknowledgement by the moderator of:

who did it?

why it was done?

what charter rule it broke?

this moderation style makes it impossible to query or dispute. is this deliberate?

for example i received a warning yesterday from moderator ten of swords because i questioned where my post had gone in a thread on wind farms.

i do not know if ten of swords was the moderator who removed my post, nor do i know why it was removed. (i want to stress that the contents of the post is not why i am making this thread, i can do that after when i am given the information i refer to above, if i am given it)

i am around here long enough to know that there was a time when every moderation action was visible and signed. if post was edited it was easy to see due to the bold edit note left, and it was signed by the mod who edited the post. similarly if a post was removed it was noted in thread and signed by who did it, and why.

so i would like to discuss please, why this new secretive form of moderation has become commonplace?

who has allowed it? is it a deliberate policy set down by the administrators?

why do those that allow it think it is acceptable? when, as a long term poster, it is seen as nothing but antagonistic, underhand, secretive and as unhelpful as it possibly could be.

id like this to be an open discussion between posters and moderators please

Big Bag of Chips

It is not done to be secretive. Sometimes it is purely time saving. A moderator may not have time, in that moment, to explain every action. Yet a thread needs to be tidied up, posts deleted etc. So that is the priority task in that moment. If a post has been removed the proper course of action is to PM a moderator of the forum. Not question it on thread. This has always been the way.

The Vanilla platform has brought with it a lot of changes and made moderation in general a lot more cumbersome.

Yes, a quick "off-topic post deleted" post would indicate that a post has been deleted but even at that the poster should not question on thread instead PM the moderator. If a post has been deleted, and no message left explaining this, or explaining who deleted it, then PM any moderator of the forum to ask why and it will be addressed.

Some forums are quieter than others and moderators have time to explain decisions or post mod notes. Some forums are extremely busy and fast moving and it is simply not feasible to expect every single action to be explained.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689290#Comment_120689290

How long does it take to add a post saying "Post deleted"? whatever about wanting explanations at least tell users that a post has been deleted. I've had a post deleted and I wasnt sure if it had been deleted or I just imagined I had posted something.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689534#Comment_120689534

Its impossible to put a post in the same position as the deleted post.

It is not possible to edit a quote out of a post, so posts that quote deleted posts need to be deleted in their entirety - a mod can't just edit out the content.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689534#Comment_120689534

Or even a single post to cover multiple similar actions: "Off topic posts deleted... stay on topic etc"

In the long run, without moderation messages on thread setting the tone / guiding users, my instinct is that ultimately there's more posts that will will need moderator action.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689555#Comment_120689555

ok so we're getting somewhere now, thanks L1011

so... as moderators, under vanilla tools, are you now saying you cannot edit a post to remove an offending remark? but you can write into a post to indicate a warning etc

can you post in place of a deleted post?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689555#Comment_120689555

well then edit the post saying "post removed by moderator and all replies deleted.

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689592#Comment_120689592

One of Vanilla’s failings is that we can’t edit other user’s posts. It’s delete or nothing. We have the ability to add notes to user’s profiles that are only visible to other moderators but that’s quite clunky. There’s a lot that Vanilla could do to make things a bit more transparent but that would come with a cost, as does anything we ask them to tweak for us.

Just FYI, I had a look at the deletion record, and it was @Ten of Swords who deleted your post. You are correct to PM him seeking further guidance on the issue.

Hope this helps.

-Shield

EDIT: The above is incorrect. Moderators can edit user’s posts. Apologies for my mistake.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689290#Comment_120689290

thanks BBoC

following on from your post i would respectfully suggest that if a moderator hasnt the time to leave a post in thread after removing a post, explaining why they removed the post, then they shouldn't have removed the post in the first place. The ethos of moderation should be to work with the posters, not against, in an adversarial way.

leaving it to the poster to discover their post has been secretly removed by an unknown moderator, and then to pm any of the moderators of the forum, for them to find out which other mod removed the post, and why, is a ridiculously cumbersome and time wasting process for everyone involved...... all due to one mod not taking the necessary 10 seconds to be upfront in the thread.

Some forums are quieter than others and moderators have time to explain decisions or post mod notes. Some forums are extremely busy and fast moving and it is simply not feasible to expect every single action to be explained.

again, respectfully, this isnt acceptable. it should be minimum policy for all moderation actions to be explained at the point of action. if a moderators hasnt the time to do this then again i suggest maybe they shouldnt be the one taking the action. surely all forum moderators talk to each other in pm groups. how quick would it be for a mod to drop a om into a group saying " lads the X forum is a bit of a shitshow right now, i havent time to deal, can someone else take it please".

all pms send an email notification, so the other mods will be notified immediately that something needs to happen

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689658#Comment_120689658

thanks shield, as i noted above its not the content of the deleted post that i am discussing here, but just to get a general understanding of the moderation policy, as it has certainly become much more obscure since the vanilla move.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689658#Comment_120689658

One of Vanilla’s failings is that we can’t edit other user’s posts.

Am I misunderstanding something here? Mods can definitely edit the OP of a thread. is that an exception?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689658#Comment_120689658

One of Vanilla’s failings is that we can’t edit other user’s posts. It’s delete or nothing.

just checked, and well, no ... there is an option to add text to a post indicating a warning etc... such as the post in the screengrab below:

i can appreciate that this doesnt remove the offending remark, but what it certainly does do is show other posters what is considered to be a rule break / over the line, also what deserves a warning and who got it. i would suggest that this is much more valuable in a contentious thread than a disappearing post.

this type of moderation doesnt seem to be commonplace however.

bucketybuck

New?

There's nothing new about it, Boards.ie mods have never seen a post they didn't want to delete. It was happening long before the forum changes.

Flaneur OBrien

I miss moderator warnings on threads. Quite often they are necessary and have calmed down stormy threads.

I have found that there has been more of a clandestine approach to modding which hasn't been beneficial to the non-mod community. Like the poster above says, posts being removed but nothing written on thread. Surely if you are deleting something you have the time to put up a post that simply says, "posts deleted - stay on topic" or "posts deleted - no personal attacks". Something to let people know a mod has had to get involved.

I also hate that posts can't be edited by mods. I have had a couple of very long (for me!) posts which were deleted because there was an issue with an opening sentence, so all sense of the post and the follow up posts were gone. Because I have ADHD, I also completely forget what I said in that in that post, so I cant repost without the offending sentence removed. When you receive your warning and click on "view post" it brings you to a page where it says "Comment Not Found(.) The page you were looking for could not be found" It's also impossible to copy and paste the post from the warning on a phone, which I use 90% of the time.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689703#Comment_120689703

this is not whats being discussed and i kindly ask for this thread not to turn into a 'grievance against mods' thread please

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689676#Comment_120689676

I’m wrong. I can edit your posts, but I can’t edit the quoted post of yours above. That’s definitely changed. It used to be delete or nothing. Apologies.

-Shield

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689663#Comment_120689663

Id strongly disagree with most of this, the main priority should be to remove the post as quick as possible before people start replying to it and multiplying the work and end up pissing more people off, especially the way things can escalate between posters on certain forums.

I do agree a message should be left in a thread whenever possible, but mods don't sit on the computer all day, if you're on your phone on the go or on a short break, the actual moderation of the posts needs to be taken care of first and if you don't have time to leave behind a message then so be it, it's better than ignoring a potential shitstorm

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689752#Comment_120689752

the speed at which a moderator can get at a post is completely arbitrary though, so suggesting it should be removed without any explanation why does not in any way mitigate against other posters responding to it. this cannot quantified, can it.

all we're asking for here is a note to show who removed the post / posts and why. this doenst have to be a dissertation.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689735#Comment_120689735

So you can edit the original offending post to say a mod has deleted it and then delete any posts that quote it?

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689790#Comment_120689790

The longer it's up the more people see it and the more might reply. The more replies there are worse they get. Not in every case of course and it will depend on the forum etc, but I would always say nip these things in the bud asap.

Not to mention that if a post has been reported the longer you wait to moderate it the more the person who reported it feels ignored and might eventually reply, and it really sucks if you have to moderate them too later.

Yes I understand it doesn't have to be a long post, but if I'm in work ( email alerts) even spending another 30 seconds can be too much.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689830#Comment_120689830

if you have the time to read that a post has been reported, and you can read the post to determine it needs to be removed, then respectfully i will suggest that you should have the time reply in thread who deleted it and why it was deleted. At that point an in thread warning would do way more to curb future reported posts, than a secretly disappeared post.

At the point of deletion you have no idea who has read it and who is replying at that point either.

on the "i cant afford to take 30 seconds to reply" point, again that is exactly what i mean when i say that moderation has taken an adversarial turn rather than the cooperative way it used to be.

These things need to be looked at holistically. Deleted posts without explanation does NOTHING to either inform the poster of what wrong was done, does not allow for querying of action and does NOTHING to warn other posters as to where the limits are.

Can other mods even seen the deleted posts as a matter of course?

if anything you are making more work on yourselves all the time.

How this can be seen as an acceptable moderation policy in the best interests of the site is very hard to grasp to be honest.

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689820#Comment_120689820

I can’t edit this post of yours because I’m quoting it so you’ll get a notification. If I delete it, you don’t get any notification.

If I deleted it, I would then have to manually go into any posts that quoted the deleted post, manually remove it, and leave a message saying so. Does that make sense?

Any edits made to a post are stamped in red automatically at the bottom. Have a look at my post #8 above of me correcting myself for an example.

-Shield

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689886#Comment_120689886

So you can edit an offending post, remove the offending remark(s) without deleting the whole post, and you can add your own moderation text to that edited post. (EDIT: Like this, yes. -Shield)

this edited post doesnt automatically become edited in all posts quoting the original post, understood.

however deleting a post doesn't automatically delete it from all posts which have quoted it either, so no time has been saved when comparing the edit to the deletion, other than the length of time to post the mod words, usually a few seconds.

i am also to understand that neither of the above two actions will send a notification to the original poster either.

so the difference between the two options are one shows the poster who edited their post and why, while the other option doesnt.

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689927#Comment_120689927

Yes, I edited your post and it can be seen from the time of the edit forward. It’s not retrospective. See my edit in your post also appears here?

No automatic notifications to edited or deleted posts.

The edit stamp is missing for my edit of your post for some reason. Is this normal @Spear ?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689960#Comment_120689960

this is excellent, thank you.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689722#Comment_120689722

Might want to edit the thread title and the opening post then, which uses terms like underhanded and clandestine to question the moderating style. Its literally a grievence about what the mods are doing.

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690002#Comment_120690002

It was explained very well by a site administrator in the second post, and I’ve answered the questions that have been asked to the best of my knowledge. I see no reason to change the thread title.

”The mods” are not one homogeneous group. We disagree quite often in our private mod’s forum, and said disagreements can get quite heated. The only thing most of us share is the title. If you have a cogent point to make, then go ahead and state your position. If I can help, I will. But lumping us all together in a group and imagining that everyone in the group is frothing at the teeth to delete posts is hardly a good starting point.

-Shield

Kaybaykwah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690002#Comment_120690002

Well put, lol.

And another lol for the road!🍺

markodaly

. .

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690002#Comment_120690002

nah, if you actually read the OP youd see its a specific thing being discussed here, not the general 'catch all' that you suggested in your first post.

Kaybaykwah

There is also the point that if the post is deleted, and wasn’t backed up, it is very difficult to bring it up with a moderator.

The tone of a moderator may also be fairly off-putting to put it mildly, and discourages discussing the matter.

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058299853/new-underhand-style-of-moderation

I have noticed the same happening very recently.Also,the moderators seem to be taking a much more active part in commenting on threads-sometimes helpful,sometimes of no consequence to the queries put forward,more like getting there post "score" up than anything else

Big Bag of Chips

There is no policy of 'secretive' and 'underhand' moderation. But I suppose it creates a catchy thread title!

It is something that has been, and can be again, discussed with moderators. Boards.ie is a huge collection of forums and hundreds of moderators. Not all forums are equal, just like not all moderators are equal. We can once again encourage moderators, where feasible, to leave a transparent note regarding moderator action.

But just to be perfectly clear, there is no policy, there is no grand plan or agreement to make things secretive and difficult. But maybe there is scope there to improve transparency.

Fact still remains, if you see a moderator action that you would like to question please do so via PM. If you don't know the specific moderator to PM them send a PM to any/all moderators of the particular forum and your issue will be addressed.

odyssey06

@sydthebeat I think used a more apt word in the thread "obscure".

The mod actions have definitely become more obscure \ less transparent since the move.

Also more obscure is the list of moderators of a forum.

Furze99

Yep, seen it happening - very odd and you wonder if your memory was faulty. Stuff just disappears. Not the only site this happens though, and at least there is some answerability here. Used to post quite regular on a music interest site and the person who ran than place was a dictator, to the extent that many people just left in a huff or drifted away. It's how you wreck a very good site with a decent community.

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689960#Comment_120689960

It depends on how soon after the initial post was the edit made. If the edit is made before a certain time period has passed, no edit message will show up. Not sure what the exact time is, but it's between 5 and 20 minutes.

It's still technically possible to see the details of the edit using the API (although just when and who, not the original post text): https://www.boards.ie/api/v2/comments?commentId=120689927&expand=all

Varik

Can't argue against it if there's no warning and don't even know who deleted it, which is probably the point.

The notification system really shows how often posts are getting deleted, the notification stays even if the posts are gone. Often enough I'll click the notification later in the day and it'll end up on error page about the post.

If its the multiple new post notification, says 5/10/ect post you still get it. Not sure if it's post 1 that was delete or if any of the new post getting deleted does it.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690823#Comment_120690823

just on your last paragraph, I have had an incident where I have reported the same post 3 times and no action has been taken and no mods will discuss why it has not been actioned on.

I have PM’ed all the mods, but the most I have gotten is

We do not give feedback to reporters However what I can say, as I have said in numerous threads in Help desk and Feedback, is if we felt action was appropriate that would usually result in a post deletion

In my opinion, that’s ridiculous. A poster had made something up about me, I pointed out how incorrect they were, which they just ignored. And the mods won’t engage with me to take the offending post down.

I then got a warning when I called out the poster as a liar.

That wouldn’t have happened if the post had been properly moderated.

Sorry, it just grinds my gears when an admin like yourself and others don’t take complaints seriously. If you did, you would’t have opened with the quite sarcastic, “But I suppose it makes a catchy thread title!” line.

JohnJoFitz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691062#Comment_120691062

Moderators probably have a a pain from the same twats reporting posts and whining all day long.

"PM'ed all the mods" - LOL

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691404#Comment_120691404

Then they shouldn’t be mods, eh?

JohnJoFitz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691408#Comment_120691408

They are volunteers with limited time. Stop annoying them with your nonsense.

sydthebeat

yeah ive no problem at all in describing the removal of posts without notification, admission, or any evidence as being "secretive" and "underhand" ... its literally the definition of this. as can be seen from some of teh responses, its how regular posters see view these actions.

im asking if its a policy, and BBoC has said above that its not a policy, fair enough.

could we actually have a policy to the opposite please...... as existed previously ?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691425#Comment_120691425

I was a mod here for over 20 years. I’m well aware of what being a mod is like.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690823#Comment_120690823

Just on that. It was suggested some time ago that a list of all mods/admins for each forum would be compiled and made available. that seems to have fallen off the radar. is there any plan to complete it?

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691439#Comment_120691439

It's the second sticky on this forum but it needs constant updating as mods come and go, and that would be an admin job. Me and Spear wouldn't be informed of such things.

For convenience, here it is:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058234282/list-of-forum-mods-and-category-mods-updated-10-02-2023

-Shield

Ten of Swords

Just giving my 2 cents on this

Some forums are quieter than others and moderators have time to explain decisions or post mod notes. Some forums are extremely busy and fast moving and it is simply not feasible to expect every single action to be explained.

again, respectfully, this isnt acceptable. it should be minimum policy for all moderation actions to be explained at the point of action. if a moderators hasnt the time to do this then again i suggest maybe they shouldnt be the one taking the action. surely all forum moderators talk to each other in pm groups. how quick would it be for a mod to drop a om into a group saying " lads the X forum is a bit of a shitshow right now, i havent time to deal, can someone else take it please".

all pms send an email notification, so the other mods will be notified immediately that something needs to happen

The above is possibly the ideal scenario, a "nice to have", however the reality of moderating the extremely busy forums like AH, CA and Covid make that impractical. If I look at the list of reported posts requiring action in the forums I moderate there is a substantial list that needs looking at any time of the day or night. I just took a look now and there have been 25 reports made about CA posts in the last 4 hours (since about 2pm) that need to be looked at and a mod will need to decide what action, if any, is required for each of them.

As volunteers the mods pick up reported posts whenever we are online, it is not a set schedule. CA has several moderators who pick up reported posts with varying degrees of activity. 2 very active moderators online several times a day and others who get involved when things get busy. Recruiting moderators is also not a straightforward task, especially for a forum like CA.

As for deleting posts;

In some cases deleting a post is the most practical solution where it is off topic or otherwise in need of action but not serious enough to warrant a warning. In addition, Vanilla has also simplified some of the functionality we used to have on vBulletin unfortunately. An example of this is the yellow/red card system on the old platform. These cards were visible to all users once a moderator issued one. On the current platform they are only visible to moderators (as a reddish band across the top of the post). We learned pretty quickly that posters, unable to see this red band, frequently thought that no action had been taken and would report the post over and over again so we also often delete posts even when a warning has been issued for this reason.

To reiterate what BBoC said above, this is not new (it was done on the old platform too) and it is not a policy (just a practical necessity for busy forums as I have outlined above)

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691693#Comment_120691693

thats a fine and understandable explanation of the current situation ToS, but it really doesn't do anything to address the issue.

do you accept that

1. the removal of posts without explanation is a problem for forum posters?
2. it actually leads to more work for moderators when the "line" being crossed is not visible
3. its causes an unnecessary antagonistic relationship between posters and moderators

just because this is the way it happens now doesnt mean its the best way going forward.

the few posts above by shield shows that its very easy to edit posts and provide warnings within the posts.

to claim that it takes too much time to do this just isnt really a good enough excuse, as there doesn't seem to be any standard across the board as to what should be deleted, what should be edited, and what should be left with warning etc. You yourself above have just said that its simply the easiest option for the mod to delete the post and leave. Its obvious that a large number of mods simply take this easiest option as their default mod action.

as a long term poster here i would like to state that really, that's not good enough. its something which is to the detriment of the site and something i seriously think needs to be addressed and a standard policy should be applied across all moderators on the whole site. Essentially you all should have a set of rules you adhere to as well.

Big Bag of Chips

Sorry, it just grinds my gears when an admin like yourself and others don’t take complaints seriously.

I have addressed the complaint. Twice in this thread. In my last post I said it is something that has, and can be again addressed with moderators. I said we can once again encourage moderators to leave a note when posts are deleted to make it more transparent.

How more seriously would you like me to take it?

Also feedback has never been given on reported posts. Ever. As mentioned above Current Affairs forum could have 50+ reports in a day. Moderators are volunteers, with lives and jobs. It would simply be impossible to give feedback on every report. Not all reported posts will need to be actioned. There are procedures in place if you have a complaint about anything that are open to every poster on the site. If you feel a moderator is not addressing a genuine issue a category moderator will look into it for you.

Big Bag of Chips

its causes an unnecessary antagonistic relationship between posters and moderators

Just on this point, moderators on this site are posters too. However some posters like to be unnecessarily antagonistic in any interactions with moderators. For what reason, I don't know.

I am part of a pretty solid moderator team on a couple of forums here. A team, it is fair to say, who are reasonable and fair in their decisions. They don't unnecessarily antagonise anyone and try to be fair to everyone on the forum. Yet repeatedly we get reported posts which are personally insulting and snide towards ordinary people volunteering their time to try keep a forum functioning. And these very same posters then complain about moderators causing an unnecessary antagonistic relationship! It has to work both ways. People in general are angrier, and they feel increasingly entitled to just throw random abuse without considering who will be reading it.

Sometimes, it is necessary to delete posts. Sometimes if the poster is honest with themselves they'll have a fairly good idea why their post was deleted. Yes, in an ideal world a note should be left. When you're chasing a fast moving thread trying to clear up a mess leaving a note might not be the top priority.

This is something we will encourage moderators to do, where feasible.

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691404#Comment_120691404

Mod: Don't quote posters if all you have to offer by way of reply is "LOL".

-Shield

Ten of Swords

You yourself above have just said that its simply the easiest option for the mod to delete the post and leave. Its obvious that a large number of mods simply take this easiest option as their default mod action.

I didn't. I said-

In some cases deleting a post is the most practical solution where it is off topic or otherwise in need of action but not serious enough to warrant a warning

Far easier to issue a warning, but if the post isn't quite deserving of a warning then it will likey either be seen by the poster as mods overreaching or taking a heavy handed approach, or the warning would simply not stand up in a DRP