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DF Commission Report

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The Defence forces have mentioned many many times they are for the east coast not the open atlantic something that people who are aganist them keep failling to mention



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭tippilot


    I think a lot of the (ill informed) feeling that these vessels are somewhat sub par stems from the larger better armed vessels that they are supplanting.

    Had these been acquired supplementary to existing capabilities rather than replacements for larger, better armed if by now well outdated ships there may not be the level of negativity. When rumours of the purchase began to circulate, they were mooted as East coast vessels required to deal with a consequence of Brexit. As the crewing crisis deteriorated, they are now being viewed as a way of getting more hulls in the water with the limited pool of sea going personnel.

    Despite their welcome arrival it must be noted that with the tied up ships and now departed P31 and Peacocks, there is a large overall net loss in capability. that needs urgent attention.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭tippilot


    7m shorter but less than half the tonnage. If we had built to a spec back then rather than making an opportunity purchase we probably would have ended up with something much more like the New Zealand boats anyway.

    I wouldn't necessarily call the Peacocks "heavily armed", just more heavily armed. Look no further than the Swedish, Finnish and Danish Navies for squeezing guns and missiles onto sub 60m platforms. Suggested counselling may reveal some residual Viking tendencies are to blame.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭sparky42


    This may be a stupid question (wouldn’t be my first), but when they wheel out the line about the radar procurement and talking about “ground based, maritime, and primary” are they talking about refits for the ships or land based coastal radar?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,479 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Sounds like a reasonable question that needs clarification.

    My assumption has been that as part of a system wide upgrade, on top of ground based primary radar, that the P60s at least would be upgraded to the maximum of their capability vis-a-vis radar air surveillance.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I not sure what the planning permissions come under for the construction of the Radar stations where they are put weather its a Part 8 or simlar.

    But could the planning process be bypassed in the name of the so called National security that are leaders are using so much lately to answer questions



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭tippilot


    The P60's are from my understanding fitted for but not with an Air Search radar. So a retrofit is technically feasible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,479 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Part IV of the Defence Act basically let's the Minister for Defence do whatever he likes regarding the acquisition, occupation and development of any land for the purposes of national defence.

    In practice, the Department may produce an environmental report in respect of non-sensitive development which leaves out a lot of operational info, but it's not required.

    Technically the Minister can have erected on any public land, or by the compulsory purchase of private land, air defence radar of any extent, if the location and the ground conditions are suitable. But most likely they will be co-located with existing civilian radar and other locations to minimise impact.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 302 ✭✭mupper2


    You know looking at it, if they don't get the finger out equipment wise alone, we're going to be at the end of a lengthy line timeframe wise after everyone else. You can see it already from aircraft, to UAV, UUV, radar systems etc etc, all the orders going in around Europe for stuff we'll also need. There is only so much manufacturing capacity to go around for this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,479 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    There is, but many of the big players will be expanding that capacity and national governments will be incentivising the investment in it, for their own economic benefit.

    I wouldn't be too concerned about lead times on the sort of stuff we need.

    Its a shortage of smart weapons and heavy artillery rounds that are causing the bigger headaches, neither of which will concern us greatly.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I’d mostly agree but not entirely, I mean for example Germany is reportedly sourcing extra Boxers from the Australian line for extra numbers, or for example the order book for the CV 90 filling up. While there’s huge areas that we to invest in that wouldn’t really touch the big ticket items, there is likely to be some issue well into the next decade on production/supply chains as nations play catch up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,479 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I guess that's an issue for everyone seeking high quality metals and electronic components generally. Fortunately are at the tail end of that queue and are really only gaining access to shite, if anything.

    In other news, the Head of Transformation has been appointed to the senior defence staff, which is an important step.

    While the article doesn't give much detail, I did have a look at Mr Molloy's CV elsewhere and he does seem to have decent experience of strategic and organisational change management. Let's hope he has the resolve to penetrate 'the blob' that is the defence sector hierarchy in Ireland. He will need it.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    So are we looking at big progress in the next two weeks on the commission?

    “The development of a detailed implementation plan is at an advanced stage and is expected to be published in Q2 of 2023," he said. "When published, it will set out the approach to implementation for each of the 130 recommendations.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Sneaking things out before the summer recess like last year?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,479 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Not really. When it's ready, it's ready.

    I think a good read of Tony Connelly's excellent article on the undersea infrastructure issue, is just one of many indicators that the Government is no longer pissing around with progress on some of these vital defence issues and there is little doubt that they are coming under significant pressure from fellow European and Western States to do so.

    And also, I can't see the average Irish person disagreeing that another cyber attack, of the gravity of the one on the HSE must be avoided, at all costs. Even the tankies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Have you seen the President's Front page on the Sunday Business Post?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    One thing i noted in the article it will mainly be civilian staff which will result in defence forces fighting AGS and NCSC for these staff.

    Maybe with the size of our country would we better of having better intergation between all 3 agencies rather than fighting for staff

    Post edited by roadmaster on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,479 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I see your point, but all three will have quite different missions. It's important to have separation between the civil police, military activity and intelligence and community and business support from the State.

    I'm sure NCSC will coordinate at a high level on appropriate policies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,479 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    So I see that the opening day of the security and foreign policy fora, in UCC, was interrupted by so-called anti-war protestors and dissident Green party members, trying to shout down the Tánaiste during his opening remarks and during the contribution of others.

    Who could have guessed that an open ticket policy would have resulted in a circus?

    I have a ticket for Dublin Castle on Tuesday myself, but I may not bother my ass as I think this process has been hijacked too much now to be of much value.

    In my opinion, the first thing Varadkar and Martin should have done on Monday morning was to commit to a Citizen's Assembly in 2024 to examine the issues raised and summarised at these fora, which would have shut down most complaints of this exercise being an echo chamber.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 437 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    I must see if some the debate is online, I assume it is well informed and from an expert position- which I’m all about. The problem for the likes of me is issues such as neutrality, as we practice it, are illogical, riddled with inconsistencies and based more on emotional sentiments than any logic. However, I accept I’m in a minority and get on with it unlike some of the element there today.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    So we are now in the 3rd quarter of the year. Mr Martin or his minions said a few weeks a go a full plan on how they would get the CoDF LOA2 in place would be publised by the end of the 2nd quarter. So will we see a plan this week??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,479 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    If you set your watch by the deadlines set by Government Departments for anything, then you'll likely be late for your own funeral.

    In fairness the Head of Transformation is only coming into post around now.

    The Dáil is in recess from July 13th and Departments tend to go into hibernation for about 6 weeks after that. If there isn't some sort of update by the end next week then it'll be September.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Cathal Berry had said recently that an easy thing the government could do is appoint the 3 new service chiefs on an interm basis. So we could maybe see something like that and even the New Army HQ put in motion



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 302 ✭✭mupper2


    A clearing of the decks as it were...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I am sure there are plenty of the senior ranks that would do 12/18 months as a interim service boss for there CV and more important the extra points on the pension



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,479 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I was thinking more about poor project management in the State sector, manifesting as political over-promising not being reconcileable with the actual time it would take to do something. Especially something as big as this step-change plan in Defence.

    And I would suggest Government offices are deserted more because of the 60/40 working-from-home mandate to aid 'green' targets.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Fu@k me that was a depressing watch. I presume everything the DOD has done to the RDF as being due to advice from the PDF.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,897 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Yeah, that was fairly depressing, all right. It looks like a fairly serious restructuring is required (Again). There's enough wrong that we can probably have an RDF-specific thread.

    Some observations, though.

    1) They are making most of the right noises. The existential question of "Why do we have a reserve?" was brought up several times. There needs to be some purpose for it, for two reasons. Firstly the morale purpose of folks training to do a job they never get to do, and secondly, so that the taxpayer gets some practical return on the investment that they are putting into the organisation. Whilst having a surge capacity for WW3 may have its own merits, it's silly to not use reservists on the operations currently being conducted. The 100-day-limit referenced for activation is silly when tours tend to be six months. If the PDF suddenly realises that they are in a position that the RDF can actually help them, then the RDF concerns will be thrown to the bottom of the priority list less frequently since helping the RDF will then help the PDF.

    2) You can't get something for nothing. There seems to be some idea going around, not exactly voiced in committee, but I think the undertones are there, that the answers for the reserve are primarily regulatory. "Let PDF come in at their prior rank. Outsource medicals to private doctors. Add employment protections". That's all well and good, but Euros need to be thrown at it as well. Reservists will give you more 'value for your dollar' than equivalent PDF personnel, but even if EUR 3 is less than EUR 5, you still need to fork out the 3.

    3) Very briefly mentioned towards the end, but soldiers have one standard. The bullet coming at you doesn't care if you're a reservist or not. No particular discussion directed towards how to achieve that standard. Granted, you need to have the people first.

    4) Distances to reserve training centers. Sure, if you can have a training hall in every town of 50,000 people or more (or whatever), then great, but as alluded to in the discussion, modern training requires more than just the church parish hall. It requires some solid infrastructure which may cost more money than practicable to install in every town. If this means you need to drive a whiles to a place where meaningful training can be conducted, then so be it. In my 23 years in the Guard, I have never been less than a 90 minute drive from my unit. My current unit of assignment is over 750km from my house. US regulation defines "Not in the local area" for reservists as over 150 miles, or 2 hours. Yes, it costs me money to get there. However, yes, I get paid to train. Bottom line, though, if people are motivated by the idea of training in whatever unit they selected, they'll make it there as long as they are not actively penalised by it. It may mean changing to a 'weekends' model instead of a 'weekday evenings' model.

    5) Matching RDF training schedules with PDF training. I get it, I'm an augmentee to an active duty unit. I spent two weeks in February on an exercise, and then three in April on the next one. It was the major training exercise for the Division, and it wasn't done with folks' university schedules in mind. The idea that reservists should only be asked to train in the summer and on weekends can't stand if you're going to be assigned to a PDF unit. We can get away with it because we go on paid orders, and have employment protection. And if some folks really couldn't get away because of their final exams the next month, we didn't force them to. Courses, however, often can be taken with a prioritisation on Summer dates.

    6) Entry physicals. I disagree a bit with the idea that folks shouldn't have to pass fitness tests or medicals to be in the Army. I mean, we're talking basic fitness levels here. If they're going to be in the military, then the organisation will take responsibility for taking care of their health and there is a certain level of reliability required. Fit people are less likely to suffer from ailment or disease, have greater resilience to infection. Even if they're not running up a hill with a GPMG, they may well find themselves in austere environments, sitting behind a computer keyboard in a non-air-conditioned building in Lebanon, for example. If the government wants a team of part-timers who can leap into action at the next cyber-attack, I'm sure there is some form of civilian contractor position which could be created in the Dept of Defense to keep them on retainer for emergency use.

    7) Matching units with the local environment. There was a comment made such as 'put a signals unit next to an IT school, a medical unit next to a doctor school.' The commission made a similar comment, and I fear they might go a bit too far. People don't always want to join to do on the weekend what they do during the week. I worked in IT when I enlisted in the US, the recruiter immediately wanted to slot me into signals as it was my civilian job. No, I wanted to blow things up. I sat behind a computer Monday to Friday, why on Earth would I voluntarily do it more? Give recruits a reasonable choice of options. The guy mentioned who was studying to be an astrophysicist may well have just wanted to do nothing more than charge up hills with a machinegun.

    8) Presumably when new PDF recruits turn up, they get assessed by a medical. Since the doctors and facilities etc are already there, why don't they just add the reservist applicants to the end of the queue? We run a similar structure here in the US, when you show up at MEPS, you're thrown in with recruits from every branch, active and reserve.

    9) I was surprised that the committee weren't actually sure of their purpose and authorities. But it'll be interesting to see how far they get at attempting to gain accountability for their questions.

    Please continue to link any other such videos.

    As an aside, what was the end result, if any, of the consultative forum?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,479 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    To coin a phrase or two:

    1. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

    2. Life is something that happens while you are busy making plans.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    This Article is a few weeks old but The Taniste well not be a welcomed man in Mullingar




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