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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,962 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    The RAF Harriers had no radar, no long range Anti Air Missiles, slow (for interceptors), and short ranged. They are ground attack aircraft primarily. Only the Sea Harriers had radar. but had similar limitations. The US ones have Radar, but still aren't interceptors. Hence why they use the UK ones as parts bins for theirs. Its also one of the harder aircraft to fly. They just aren't suited to the current Irish requirement.

    Brilliant aircraft though.

    In a modern context its design compromised its speed and stealth potential and payload, going forward. There was a proposal for a "Super Harrier" but they ultimately went the F35 route instead.

    Personally I think the Harrier still is a useful aircraft (not for Ireland). But they are shrinking fleets to put the money in fewer more advanced aircraft. Hence why they want to dump the A10 and F15 in the US.

    Post edited by Flinty997 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Apart from what has been mentioned there's also the high accident rates for them, and the fact that you are talking about fairly old designs at this stage with plenty of issues building up for spares for example. There would be no real value in going with them, not too mention the fact that they would struggle with an air interception/policing situation off the West Coast given their limited top speed.

    They were a relatively niche airframe that served a purpose but not suited for us at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭RavenP


    @Mr Disco Harriers are really not that useful. For a start they cannot really do an interecpt. They are not that fast, a bit faster than the PC9s but intercept jets need to be really fast to catch up with the thing they are trying to catch. For instance, an unidentified aircraft travelling at 36,000 feet at 600 mph shows on Irish radar.Unless the aircraft is going to fly more or less over an Irish airbase then the interceptor must catch up with and intercept a plane travelling, possibly away from it at 600mph. As you can see the interceptor really needs to be at least capable of twice that speed to stand a fair chance of making the intercept. The only people to use it in such a role were the RN, but in this context it was to intercept aircraft flying to your ship, so speed is not so important when they are heading your way. But I agree, if Ireland is going to acquire fast combat jets they should be multi-role. But that means not just buying multirole aircraft, it means training multirole pilots, and different types of munitions. One of the big problems the RAF and other top tier airforces have is that they have multirole aircraft, but pilots only trained for one role, meaning their supposedly multi-role aircraft is not really able to function in that manner.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭sparky42


    O'Leary having a temper tantrum, that never happens... To be honest though, I don't really see the point in all this jumping through hoops to try and get special methods to offset the costs of air policing. The State can pay for it with the resources we have already, its just we are choosing as we always have not to bother. Of course its going to cost to create, but that is a byproduct of us having not invested before now. If we returned to the % level we were spending during the Troubles, this wouldn't be an issue, or even just hit 1%, no need for this BS of getting contributions from other departments or some sort of special tax.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,962 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    A Harrier is twice as fast as a PC9. Still too slow. But it's not in anyway similar to a PC9. PC9 is slower than spitfire.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    That's true. But would be grand for buzzin Jonny Russians ships etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭RavenP


    @Flinty997 "A Harrier is twice as fast as a PC9. Still too slow. But it's not in anyway similar to a PC9. PC9 is slower than spitfire." Actually the difference in capability in the intercept role is not that great. For a start the PC( can sustain its 370MPH longer than the Harrier can sustain 600MPH. Also the interceptor weaponry of the harrier, sidwinders and Aim120s, well PC9 can take sidewinders although no one uses it in an intercept role. The wider point though still stands, from an intercept point of view Harriers would give Ireland very little extra capability beyond what it already has. And then there are all the other problems with a very old platform.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,962 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    RAF never had a version that carried the 120s. Already made the point its unsuitable for Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭sparky42




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Good article that IMO!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Its pretty much a rehash of the Journal one I think, not the first time that reporter has repackaged a story from Irish news for Sky News.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 313 ✭✭mupper2


    Yep but on the other hand it'll be outside pressure as much as anything that will (hopefully) cause change



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Totally agree with, lets be honest it was always likely to be someone say "cop the feck on lads" to even start things, that or something catastrophic that has everyone pointing fingers (lets hope it doesn't come to that), I wonder if the Brits had been charging us noticeable amounts of money for the coverage since the 1950's would that have changed things?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    All this air policing the jets may aswell be allocated to An Gardai, what are they gonna do fly up there and give them penalty points is it?

    I can see it now Irish jets race to intercept a Russian plane...

    Irish Pilot : *Very Official spiel about leaving our airspace...*

    Russian Pilot : No... *Continues Course*

    Due to having no defence against long range missiles and the fact that Russia could respond by striking many irish cities with heavy strikes in retaliation which ireland would be defenseless against. Along with the military installations that our limited fighters operate out of leaving us at war and completely at there mercy with our 10-15 jets rendered useless.

    Its all well and good patriotically shooting down a Russian Plane until it comes time to deal with the consequence's, it would be a real delusion meets reality moment for alot on here and the defence forces experts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    As I said decades on decades without an incident over Irish sky's is what gives me confidence, what a job has been done to keep our airspace safe.

    But of course you and your buddies "legimate" concerns completely ignore this glaring fact.

    It just shatters this myth of urgent need for jets because of security. We have been secure for decades before you and your buddies got the brainwaves to try and acquire jets.

    And it's not by chance either our decades apon decades of safety.

    Your main problem and those that follow your logic is that you believe you are savy and clever and in the know because you read articles about it and watch you tube vids on it...reality couldn't be further from the truth. Ye havent a clue debating the type of jet to buy as if you know what your talking about ye would laughed out of the room!

    Off to the airshows with ye 🤣🤣 don't forget the aviator glasses and leather jacket. 🤣🤣



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,759 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You're ignoring the very obviously changed security and defence situation in Europe and I've no idea why.

    I mean its decades and decades since a Heinkel bomber last dropped a bomb randomly on the south of England, but that statement in isolation is as daft as it is useless. But it does seem to be the level of your logic, that everything stays the same for generations.

    Your wilful obtuseness just makes you sound mental. And as you seem to be able to string a sentence together, I must assume you're not actually soft in the head and must be a troll and am done engaging with with you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,962 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    That journal piece seem to have widely circulated. Its hit a number of sites I follow.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,031 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    If I may inquire, how do you square your position with that of the government's own commission which says that maintaining the current situation is... ill-advised?

    I have no doubt that the government is extremely displeased with this conclusion, as it is evident from several decades of gross underfunding that the government doesn't like the idea of spending more money on defense, but that doesn't deny the result (As discussed on this thread. https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058232161/df-commission-report/p1 ), and that was before the current fighting in Ukraine kicked off.

    It's worth observing that the government's position has never changed, it has simply never attempted to enact its own position. To quote the paper, "there is a disconnect between stated policy and the actual current resources and capabilities of the Defence Force"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,962 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I wonder did Leo talk about it with the  Air Commodore-in-Chief of the RAF when he met him recently.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭sparky42


    The Express has it now, anyone want to guess how the comment section is going.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Well you obviously aren't very well schooled in critical thinking, you constantly reference European security as a reason for your proposed knee jerk reaction. Mainland Europe security is all but irrelevant to us. We are on an island at the far side of the conflict Incase you had not noticed.

    Let us have a look at what logistics it would take for an attack on Ireland.

    I will ignore your selective ignorance and reference Russians inability to project power beyond its own door step. (Doesn't bode well for your argument if the deathly threat you are basing it on is completely and utterly incompetent)

    So let's take Russia seeing as there current actions makes them probably the most realistic example.

    So they have to cross Europe, they have to cross thru UK territory and they have to attack a small island with little to no strategic value as they would not be able to 1 even get there without facing serval global military powers who thru there own self preservation would simply not allow them to attack Ireland for very obvious reasons.

    But you being who you are and having the blinkers on completely to reality.

    The UK would not allow Russians to attack Ireland. They would not want a hostile force having a foothold on there doorstep. It's that simple it's basic military strategy.

    Look at the help Ukraine recieved from the UK and US now imagine the help Ireland would receive being a neutral country and having extremely good and strong ties with the US and to an extent the UK.


    Is it starting to make sense can you see how tall an order it would be to attack Ireland in any meaningful fashion? At face value Ireland seem unsecure in reality... If the **** hits the fan we would have the immediate support of the most powerful militaries in the world.

    Unless you want to argue that the US would allow Ireland to be attacked ?.

    Now you LL probably disagree with all this anyway as your just that type of person but that's irrelevant because it's simply the reality of situation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Well that commission obviously is going to go to bat for the defence forces and try get as much funding as possible that's understandable.

    I think where the investment falls flat is that Ireland can't be secure as a standalone nation from a military perspective.Funding is only half the job and is pointless really without entering a military alliance.

    Like it's a fair question to ask if we send up our fighter jets to a Russian plane and that plane doesn't comply and is shot down.. what's the plan after that ?

    Cross our fingers and hope they don't attack? Now that's just one hypothetical example but can you see the problem?

    We have no depth to our security no big stick if you will like NATO to wave at the Russians if you will, especially being a non aligned nation.

    Basically if we're going to to trouble of getting fighter jets we may aswell finish the job join NATO abandon our neutrality and have a full fledged military.

    Coddin ourselves with jets and policing on its own is a waste of money.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 313 ✭✭mupper2




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,759 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Without reading it I'd say it's a bit UKIP Gammon DUP Priti Patel Potato Guinness Riverdance lazy feckless Irish Guinness Paisley the IRA Pixie Heads Poppy McClean UVF Brexit Barnier Varadkar Londonderry?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Pretty much yeah. Surprised the Torygraph hasn’t run with it yet tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,759 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    It will, once one of their most obnoxious jingoistic columnists have put their stamp on it as commentary rather than news



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,751 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    That's not how it works at all. Interceptor flys along side path of R bomber and forces it to change course. At worst fires a few cannon shells in front of it to drive home the message. Launch missles at Irish cities! no way. What type of long range missiles did you think they would use? Nuclear hardly. Even non nuclear launched from Subs would probably be interpreted as a possible first strike attack on the UK and force them to respond immediately.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,175 ✭✭✭thomil


    Just hopped over there for a second, your interpretation is a fair bit more coherent than the stuff that I've seen.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I need to wash out my eyes with bleach and scrape my brain clean with a rusty wire brush...

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,962 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I think you are missing we are geographically impossible to attack with anything. The country identifies as 'unreachable' and 'invulnerable'.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,751 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    That's just not true, sadly. Although unlikely a submarine could launch cruise missiles at us from the Atlantic or a Long range bomber.



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