Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120431066#Comment_120431066

In order of Cost, highest to lowest. (the cheaper you go, the less capability you get)

Rafale (Twin engine Gen 4 interceptor, Missiles, internal cannon)

BAE Typhoon (Twin engine Gen 4 interceptor, Missiles, internal cannon)

Gripen E (single Engine Gen 4.5 interceptor Missiles, internal cannon)

Gripen C/D (Single Engine Gen 4 interceptor Missiles, internal cannon C version only)

KAI FA-50 (Twin engine Fighter & Light Attack/Trainer, Missiles, internal cannon)

Leonardo M-346FA (Single engine Fighter & Light attack/Trainer, Missiles, external cannon)

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120431173#Comment_120431173

Youd be wrong there. Alpha jet still twice as fast as PC9

Ramasun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120431481#Comment_120431481

How many would we need to provide independent basic cover of Irish air space?

Would they need to be deployed outside of Baldonnel to add effective range?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120431560#Comment_120431560

Somewhere between 8 minimum and 40. West coast deployment for at least one flight. (4 aircraft)

Ramasun

It might be a better investment in aircraft if we don't have the manpower to crew our naval vessels.

Larbre34

The previous General Officer Commanding the Air Corps did a paper on it, after he retired.

His educated estimate was 16 aircraft of an F-16 or JAS-39 Gripen type.

A flight of two on Quick Reaction Alert. Another flight of two on active standby to sub out the first two on a scramble, because we wouldn't operate tankers.

So you're probably looking at 6/8 fully operational at Shannon, then 8/10 at Baldonnell with two operational and 6/8 in maintenance, overhaul, or assigned to pilot and ground crew training and development. That would give you two operational squadrons and a training wing, with aircraft rotating through the status board to meet their technical needs.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120431719#Comment_120431719

It’s not an “either/or” it needs to be both.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120431508#Comment_120431508

I know speed the Alpha is quicker but technology wise would the PC9 would it not be a step up

jonnybigwallet

Alpha jet is a bit long in the tooth....Do they still make them?

Dohvolle

They started making them when the GOCAC was still in primary school..

Its a relic. It might have made sense as a Fouga replacement 20 years ago, but not now.

bear1

Surely we could get a good deal on some migs :D

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120434486#Comment_120434486

Only one previous owner, slightly aggressive in their use and didn’t really keep up the maintenance…

thomil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120434753#Comment_120434753

Some assembly required...

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120434753#Comment_120434753

Very cheap!

dublincc2

Are F-35s completely out of the question? If not, why? There would be no need for replacement for decades. 10 F-35A jets seems optimal to me instead of playing catch up later. Also consider the potential of a united Ireland by the mid-century which would expand our zone and end all reliance on the RAF.

Larbre34

F-35s are still almost brand new tech, operationally speaking, and any of us who are interested in such things can't have failed to notice all the press they are getting for the wrong reasons, in terms of glitches and shortcomings.

Apart from that they cost between $80 and 90 million a pop.

So, Ireland has absolutely no need for very expensive and flawed 5th Generation fighters which will never go next or near a front line, when cheap and probably second hand, single-engined 4th Gen fighters like the F-16 or JAS-39 will do perfectly for domestic air policing and general security tasks.

tippilot

Zero to fifth gen is not a realistic ambition. Whatever happens will involve some sort of bridging aircraft.

We have two options IMO. The first is to go for one of the lightweight fighter evolved trainers out there like FA50 or M346FA. Long range QRA is unrealistic but in the lifetime of these aircraft a capability can be built within the IAC from the ground up. While not true front line fighters, they can have a role in a broader package for international deployment work and can carry modern smart air to ground weaponry and BVR missiles. Perfect aircraft to learn the trade on and have enough teeth to do a job when required.

Option two would involve buying second hand gen 4 aircraft with 10-20 years remaining lifespan. You could shorten the timeframe to full operating capability by creating a mix of in house pilots and techs and recruiting experienced crew from overseas.

dublincc2

F-16s or F/A-18s would be more realistic then?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120456538#Comment_120456538

Forget F/A-18. Too costly to operate. (based on Finlands assessment recently, as legacy Hornet operators, when considering the Super Hornet).

F-16 ideally, but those becoming available are being snapped up by former Warsaw Pact forces keen to divest themselves of all legacy Russian made aircraft.

Currently, the best we can hope for is the other option though. Leonardo have already being pushing the M346FA to us. Remains to be seen if Poland keep theirs now that the FA50 is also heading their way. The M346 not had a happy entry into Polish service.

Anything is better than what we currently have though.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120456894#Comment_120456894

Can the M346 go supersonic with external Fuel tanks and weapons?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120456995#Comment_120456995

Not even downhill.

If supersonic is 1236km/h, the M346 only has a max speed (Low level) of 1065km/h.

The FA50, however can manage Mach 1.5 with internal cannon or 1837.5km/h at 1000m.

If we can't do Mach 1 or more, then we couldn't catch a cold.

Grassy Knoll

Whatever about the feasibility of fighter jets etc, in the current context of staff shortages, there will zero chance post the next general election. Some populist parties would prefer to indulge in the hypocrisy of the RAF defending us rather than doing it ourselves. Watch the carry-on unfold in the next few months around a reasonable attempt to debate our future security, defence strategy etc for a foretaste of the claptrap to come. All kinds of arguments and issues will be conflated …

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457187#Comment_120457187

The best one is by being neutral we don't need to defend ourselves.

Oh and we have nothing to fear from Russia either. That's a good one. And the forums on neutrality will be loaded with people employed by the global arms industry...

cobham

What/who are the planes showing off over Dublin this morning? oh the Easter parade in city but planes swooping low over houses in suburbs🙄

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457268#Comment_120457268

Planes??

Air Corps doing Easter flypast probably.

Or else a Squadron of USAF F22 Raptors here to protect our skies for POTUS visit because we wont. Be specific!

dublincc2

What about the F-15? Seems to be a pretty solid aircraft that is now being replaced by other air forces.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457540#Comment_120457540

Who?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457540#Comment_120457540

Are you suggesting we are going to be launching large scale air to air combat missions, or any foreign air combat missions at all in the foreseeable future? The scope of our missions/needs has been fairly well defined at this point, and the options for meeting them are fairly well highlighted as well.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120455630#Comment_120455630

They are a POS - an absolute top-tier lemon. Currently, out of 540 in the US inventory, only 160 are battle ready.

The engines are a complete mess, experioncing vibration harmonics that have destroyed planes and other than that, they just fail due to other issues at a high rate.

Thus while around 540 F-35s are in service across the Air Force, Navy and Marines, only around 160 are fully mission capable placing availability rates among the very lowest in the U.S. Military – rivalled only by those of the fighter’s heavier counterpart the F-22 which has consistently been in the lead for poor availability due to even more serious maintenance issues.

Australia has 40-45 surplus F-18s, effectively 2 squadrons, which I would like to see Ukraine get, though if the US won't allow that, Ireland might be a good fit to acquire half of them. They would come with spares and maintainance equipment. $4m a pop when some were sold to Canada.

They are in VGC as they were never used on Carriers or in a salt spray environment. Australia started replacing the central fuselage on some according to US maintainance schedules but stopped early on because no corrosion or cracks were found, they were replacing perfectly good fuselages for no benefit.

In, truth, they are far more capable than Ireland needs, coming with upgraded radars, Israeli ECM pods and graound attack targeting pods.

Larbre34

Nope, Hornets of any generation are too complex, maintenance heavy and expensive to operate for Ireland's needs.

They also have an appalling range (important for a Country with no Tankers) and they have a couple of inherent problems, one being airframe corrosion, the remediation of which is costing the US Navy a large fortune and another being the rather unfortunate tendency for the OEM oxygen supply system to want to kill the pilots a lot.

And while I don't agree that Air Corps pilots always need the bourgeois luxury of breathable air, I do think buying second-hand examples of a corroding aircraft for service in Ireland, of all places, may be unwise.