DF Commission Report

Manic Moran

I have a feeling the specifics will be gone over in multiple sub-threads, but let's use this for discussion of the report in one neat place, shall we?

Horrible-looking link to the PDF, but it works.

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/YR2FHLEUP3SU/215358-a21b9438-45a6-4c26-a508-c0d1aeeeb336.pdf

roadmaster

Its time to get Macron on the phone theres a bulk discount deal that can be done on aircraft and ships

jonnybigwallet

Good idea to have most of the conversation about the report on the one page.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606287#Comment_118606287

Not just Macron, if we were looking for transport capability, aren't the German's still looking to offload some of their A400 order? We could leverage off of the other EU/UK user base for maintenance perhaps as up our capacity (or just keep deep maintenance with them given our small demand?). For ships the priority should be getting the MRV finally fecking ordered to replace Eithne, after that if the IPV's have been bought for the Peacocks, look at one of the new gen ships being designed (ie EPC) for the next fleet buy.

Not sure what the best call for the Army vehicles would be.

Manic Moran

OK, so as I'm clicking through things...

Firstly, is the EDP referenced a few times available anywhere? It seems to discuss the planned replacement of current equipment?

A recurring theme throughout much of this engagement has been a widespread concern about the paucity of real debate on defence and security matters in this country. The Commission concurs with this view and hopes that this report may help to fuel a more informed and grounded debate on these matters

Ha. Well, that's the big thing, isn't it? What's going to happen in the Oireacthtas or Dept of Finance as a result of this report? Will there be anything at all, or will this report generate a couple of days' worth of buzz, tut-tutting, and then be buried again?

The RDF is tasked:

‐ To augment the PDF in crisis situations. This could include conventional military operations, ATCP and ATCA support, and barrack security or other duties that release members of the PDF.

‐ To contribute to state ceremonial events.

So in non-crisis situations (eg peacekeeping operations) the RDF can expect to continue to be unused with no chance of actually putting skills and training to the field? I'm sure nobody joined the Field Artillery reserve unit to guard the barracks. Granted, this commission indicates that this seems to be an underutilisation and that the RDF needs to be used by the PDF as a matter of routine.

When we come up with courses of action in the US, we shouldn't, but always do, have three Cs of A of which one is always a 'throwaway', so we don't need to work on it. That's obviously LOA1 here, but I have a feeling that although they really think LOA3 is the correct answer, they put forward the 'realistic' one as the one in the middle, to look like a compromise yet be the bare minimum the country can get away with.

The PC-9s are due for replacement in 2025? Why am I suspicious that will happen?

So why are Naval Service ships chronically understaffed anyway? Is there a lack of applicants? I thought the DF normally had more folks trying to get in than not. Are the Naval Reserve not being commonly used to help the current ship manning shortfall? Maybe this line has something to do with it: "In addition, the Naval Service Reserve has no presence in areas with significant maritime activities and large coastal communities such as Galway, Louth, and the North West.". Wait, so the Naval Reserve isn't located where people who understand the sea live? They patrol inland lakes?

What is a Super-Medium helicopter? Cougar? Mi-17?

In addition to the need to close this personnel gap in the current strength of the Air Corps, the Commission in Chapter 9 of this report recommends the urgent re‐establishment of both a first and second line Air Corps’ Reserve with a particular focus on recruiting specialists such as trained pilots, technicians and air traffic controllers

Is there a provision for ex-IAC pilots now flying for Ryanair or whoever to be retained in an Air Corps flying role as a pilot in the reserve? I mean, they're already trained in military flying, and people keep complaining about how they keep getting lost to the civilian side.

The Defence Forces would need to radically alter the way it sources personnel to work in this domain. Traditional approaches to recruiting military service personnel first, and then training selected serving personnel as specialists, must be set aside, or supplemented, as should customary fitness standards and conventional requirements for military training. The Commission would envisage that large numbers of personnel directly recruited to work in this area would be civilian Information and Communications Technology (ICT) employees and contractors, as well as members of Reserve, and CIS personnel from across all services.

Cyber is probably the most difficult domain for a military to get its head around, it's probably in reality the most important 'real-world warfighting' thing the DF will be doing, probably is doing right now, and like every other military, will have to balance the fact that good people (the only useful ones) are very highly paid compared to their military counterparts. The use of civilians to fill the role whilst under the 'command' of military personnel is not unprecedented. It's worth noting, for example, that the US Army's Corps of Engineers is almost entirely a civilian workforce earning a Dept of the Army Civilian pay cheque. The British already have IT reservists exempt from grooming/appearance standards. Of course, in the event of actual hostilities, these folks have to be dependent upon to show up when ordered to, and are likely to be 'valid targets' in themselves.

Was interested to note that the Bde commanders report directly to the MoD, a bit like the US field commanders don't have the Chiefs of Staff in their chain of command. I guess it makes sense as long as the Bde HQs are, in reality, just administrative organisations. How often does a Bde HQ conduct a Bde-level CPX/TEWT/Whatever-you-call-it? Not quite sure I understand the proposed replacement chain, though, would the Bdes report to Joint Force Command?

Develop specialised air manoeuvre and amphibious infantry battalion groups habitually associated with the proposed Air Force and Navy in Dublin and Cork.

Wait, what?

I'm not sure renaming the ARW will be well received. There's something to be said for tradition, and I don't know if the renaming will help much. This probably means it will be the first part of the report to be carried out. Just requires repainting a few signs.

The section on military police seems to consider them purely as a criminal/garrison type police service. Whilst I understand the point that the commission is making, to include bringing an ex-senior-Garda on as an advisor, I'm not convinced that will work for field MPs. US MP units come in two very different categories as a result. Some units drive in white patrol cars around bases with blue flashing lights, others drive HMMWVs and trucks in a battlefield role.

International training is a force enabler and should continue to form part of the professional military development for Defence Forces personnel of all ranks, including reservists

I can't wait to see the first Irish reservist to attend Leavenworth.... I'll probably be long dead and buried by the time that happens. Maybe I'm just cynical.

RDF personnel should be required to complete joint training courses and the RDF should have full access to the training facilities provided throughout the Defence Forces.

Hear, hear. Not only for capabilities reasons, but joint courses also breaks down the 'them vs us' attitude often found between regulars and reservists.

Remaining conscious of the decision to phase out married quarters, the challenges in the current housing market, and the need for Defence Forces’ personnel to move frequently, the Commission believes that solutions to this organisational issue must be found in part within the scope of general housing policy, while recognising the specific locations and needs of the Defence Forces.

It's an interesting problem. For personnel who are living on the local economy, is there a housing allowance which varies by region? (Eg you get more extra to rent a place in Dublin than Tralee)

Opinions on the Lance Corporal position? The commission states that one of the problems is that the privates don't want to take an infantry-centric PNCO course. Why don't the trades have their own NCO course then? Too few promotees to make it worthwhile?

RDF is being allowed to die on its feet. This belief is strengthened by the fact that, of the 13 projects related to the RDF arising out of the White Paper on Defence 2015, not one had been commenced when the Commission began its work in December 2020.

See my initial question of whether this paper will go anywhere.

Changing 50:50 combat/CS to CSS I don't think will work well. The US has certainly found out that reservists care a lot about what they do as their job, and people inclined to be Army Reservists are the sort who are inclined to gravitate towards the shooty jobs. You'll end up seeing the combat units well manned, and the CSS units much less so, unless the RDF benefits shoot up.

I think that's the high-points from my scan.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607137#Comment_118607137

And guess what that lines up with? The Budget, getting Finance and the Cabinet to sign off on budget increases will take time, hopefully smaller things like the Union issue can be dealt with sooner, but was it ever reasonable for Coveney to come out today and announce a supplementary budget?

roadmaster

I think i read also it suggested transfering coastguard roles to the air corps? Which roles are they thinking off?

ricimaki

I found it interesting that LOA 2 calls for 2 "medium lift rotary wing aircraft".

In terms of rotary wing capabilities, the Commission has observed the increasing demand on Air Corps’ helicopters in providing ATCA supports to government departments and agencies, particularly in the provision of air ambulance services to the HSE (through both the dedicated EAS service and the ‘as available’ inter‐hospital transfer service) and the provision of assistance to local authorities in dealing with wildland fires. As outlined in Chapter 4, it makes eminent sense to maintain Defence Forces’ capabilities that can also deliver non‐military outputs using dual‐use capabilities and, in this context, the Commission recommends that, within LOA 2, two additional medium lift rotary wing aircraft should be acquired, increasing the current medium lift fleet to eight helicopters. This will ensure the Air Corps’ helicopter fleet can continue to deliver Defence Forces’ supports and will also enhance its capacity to, for example,support local authorities when dealing with wildland fires and othersuch climate related emergencies that are evidently becoming more frequent. When the helicopter fleet is being replaced this should be on the basis of a step up to eight super‐medium helicopters which will enhance Defence Forces’ on‐island troop transport capability, provide joint force support to the Army, Navy and SOF, and provide additional capacity in the ATCA role.

These would be V-22 Ospreys, right?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118608665#Comment_118608665

No it would two medium class helicopters, at least adding two more 139s, maybe even get the mil spec ones instead of the green civvies we have. Ospreys are an entirely different animals.

ricimaki

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118608705#Comment_118608705

Thanks for clarifying, that makes a lot more sense.

I was taking "rotary wing" up incorrectly, and trying to figure out how Ospreys would work here.

ancientmariner

Glad that at least we seem to have a complete report with sufficient historical analysis to realise that the continuing Defence attrition is down to those with a laissez-faire attitude towards required capability. The Ministers and Secretaries Act of 1924 gives the duty of train, equip, and maintain the PDF to the MOD, his Council on Defence, and the Secretary as Chairman. It seems to me that the non-military members broke the mould and packed the other Council members out of the department to further afield and over time pruned structures, real estate, personnel, and capability to tighten Budgets. The whole Nature and capability of Service units has to some extent been neutered with visually pleasing hardware but with very little military purpose.

The upsetting realisation is that we once were near LOA 3 up to 1960's but failed to bring on board advancing military technology and opted for a system that used the hope of International Defence coverage from neighbours and powers far afield. If we don't make some effort we may find that nature abhorring a vacuum may replace our myopia with unwanted intrusions.

The starting point should be a Defence Budget that is separate from historic continuing payments to pensioners . Each year the budget should be fully spent across all subheads or used as a down payment for vital hardware or structures or systems.

arsebiscuits82

I can see the reserve just being binned at this stage. There is zero interest in it in reality, and the age profile of the organisation at the minute is heading the wrong direction. The pdf are overtasked as it is and let's be honest the rdf goes to the end of the list of things to do.

It would be an easy thing to do, as all they would be doing is telling volunteers they are no longer required, as they aren't classed as employees.

Or if keeping it, call a muster parade for every unit in the country for a saturday morning, check off who is there, bin who isn't and start from that base line. The days of keeping people on the books to look good on returns should be gone.

ancientmariner

Recruitment to any organisation needs continuous visibility and ease of entry. Shutting down drill halls without a clear easy non-cost alternative for aspiring reservists is heading for extinction. Reservist enlistments need to be more targeted to Unit requirements such as technicians, Drivers, maritime personnel, medical staffs, airline staffs, former military personnel. I know at least one Sergeant line who is a Master Mariner.

To get to any ambition level we may have to consider external oversight that may be more focussed on Defence requirements and who will do what. For instance Primary radar needs a 24/7 input and other countries often have that as a combined task for Defence and Civilian ATC side by side. As far as UW surveillance goes some state assets are mapping seabed wrecks for many years and producing well illustrated Volumes of such wrecks. They are also mapping underwater areas many miles offshore, yet outfitting our Navy with a military version of such equipment doesn't seem to be relevant for a modern naval vessel.

Coupled with Primary radar is the consideration of Air Defence for land Units and ships at sea, all of which require detection at Unit and appropriate response. Short Range Air Defence on land is usually a mobile unit however at sea it will need some reconfiguration of ships masts and gun-mounts.

ancientmariner

The Report advises many changes to implement and add reality to achieve both White paper intentions and their own Levels of Ambitions proposals. We need, it seems, a partnership with a mentoring entity, perhaps a country or agency. In addition we need to formulise or re-establish training facilities at apprenticeship level and for the Navy a full range Diving Academy/School. In that regard we should include a training Tower to allow for divers to be deployed from depths and cover a future option for submarine training. I noticed recently that the City area of Singapore has 4 AIP Submarines and we own the submarine play grounds in the western Approaches to Europe.

jonnybigwallet

I think that buying a submarine should be the last piece of the jig saw as far as new ships are concerned. I would like one of those U BOOT KLASSE 212A jobbies meself. But those can wait until we have a couple of frigates and possibly a MRV in the arsenal first. I note that BULGARIA has just ordered 2 submarines off a german shipbuilder. If they can afford a couple then we could manage one at least. Ideal for puttin the fear of God into Jonny Russian if he comes prowlin around. A silent killer capable of unleashing destruction unseen and undetected.

Manic Moran

The reality is that though a submarine is a fantastic military capability, Ireland is far more interested in dual-role (Warfighting and civilian duties like SAR and Fisheries) capabilities, which subs aren't great at. Though I do wonder if illegal fishing might stop if trawlers observed doing it suddenly exploded without warning.

jonnybigwallet

I was thinkin that it might be useful in tandem with the potential new frigate if used on overseas deployment, also to prevent any interference with data cables in the Atlantic...

..

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118615216#Comment_118615216

They also have a conscript military of 70k active members and a budget several times the most ambitious of what is proposed so I’m not sure the relevancy of even using them as an example? In an ideal world where the state had paid anything more than lip service to defence at any point in the history of the state submarines might be something that Ireland might be willing and able to support. When our immediate goal is to have enough crews to use the hulls we have and our stretch goal is to have a few actual combat capable vessels in service, talking about submarines is fantasy fleet nonsense.

off the top of my head the smallest population wise nation to support subs in Europe is Norway with a population 5.4 million, a military of 20+k and a budget of over 7 billion dollars, so again twice the most optimistic budget, so how do you suggest we go from the most optimistic LoA to adding in a significant extra capital and manpower issue like generating subs, since one alone isn’t a worthwhile investment.

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118617599#Comment_118617599

What I'm proposing is to include in the School of diving a training tower to cover combat diver deployment and train future submariners escape techniques. While we are credited with inventing the first submarine via Holland and the FENIANS, we need not rush out and buy one. However it is the ultimate maritime weapon and should remain an ambition for LOA 3 onwards after the Jet Fighters.

There are also other considerations to be dealt with in order to deal with certain realities such as the need to plan for the berthage and accommodation for a 12 ship Navy. Right now with 9 ships we have at most three ready berths on the west side of the Basin and one at the Oil Wharf. All other ships occupy Dockyard Support Berths. The Base is just not big enough for a functioning Navy. The proposed west Coast Base needs to be dedicated and available 24/7 for exclusive naval use with at least 400metres of berthage for three or four ships. Provision there would be needed to supply Fuel, lubricants, water, waste disposal, shore power etc.

If we opt for two crews for each ship we must also factor in Seagoing replacements to fill gaps in both Port and Starboard crews Twelve ships would need the person equivalent of 24 crews to run continually on operations 220+ days per year. Those directly engaged with the ships would be 1080 personnel plus a portion of Seagoing replacements to cover sickness, courses, special leave etc. on the assumption of at least 45 personnel in each crew. In the old days we had an allowance of a spare crew equivalent for each ship which could mean the need for 1620 personnel to keep 12 ships at sea. After that you provide personnel for all shore based activities at the Base and Dockyard.

sparky42

From the IT

Findings of the Commission on the Defence Forces which were criticised by Russia this week had been cleared by Government ahead of publication.

The commission’s report, which was published on Wednesday, cited instability on Europe’s borders as being a major threat to Irish security and quoted EU reports which were strongly critical of Russia.

This drew a sharp response from Russian ambassador to IrelandYuriy Filatov the next day who said the EU reports were “totally unfounded”.

“Any unbiased observer would be hard put to find any evidence of such a ‘threat’. Attempts to portray Russia as a boogie [sic] are misplaced and regrettable,” said the ambassador in a statement released by the Russian embassy.

It is understood members of the commission and Government officials were surprised by the ambassador’s comments as they had taken care only to cite official comments from EU reports, rather than introducing their own criticism

The section of the report dealing with potential external threats to Irish security, including from Russia, China and far-right and Islamic extremists, was vetted by Department of Foreign Affairs officials to avoid drawing Ireland into a dispute with other nations. The section was cleared by officials with no amendments.

Upgrading

The commission has recommended an overhaul and upgrading of almost all sections of the military to enable it to meet the tasks laid out for it by Government. This will cost, at a minimum, €500 million a year in the short term, and, if the most ambitious proposals are accepted, up to €3 billion a year.

It has also recommended wide-ranging cultural changes to increase the representation of women and minorities and to improve military working life. Many of these can be implemented at little to no extra cost

Over the coming months, the Department of Defence, in consultation with the Defence Forces, will refine the options laid out in the report to a series of proposals for which it will seek funding. That requires decisions about what the department and the Defence Forces want to do first.

“In order to get money from [the Department of Public Expenditure],” says one official, “we have to decide what we want the money for.”

It is understood the Minister for Defence, Simon Coveney, will spend some time consulting with officials and more extensively with all ranks in the Defence Forces to get their views on the priorities, and the realistic timescales for their implementation. In parallel with this, Mr Coveney will seek the backing of the Taoiseach and Tánaiste, and the agreement of the Green Party, where concerns about neutrality abound.

Obvious difficulty

It is likely to be July before this process crystallises into a proposal to be put by Mr Coveney to the Department of Public Expenditure as part of the normal budgetary process. One obvious difficulty is that the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces will then have to compete with other departments, who also have their own asks, their own priorities, their own reform plans.

The report has recommended the establishment of an implementation oversight group, with an independent office and chair.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/officials-surprised-by-russian-criticism-of-defence-forces-report-1.4800093

Someone tell me one thing in the LoA2 that would/could cause issues about neutrality outside of the insane version certain Irish politicians and parties have?

ancientmariner

The massing of Troops , Armoured Units, and Strike Missile systems on the borders of a neighbour has to be construed as an Act with a purpose. The Russian Ambassador has to explain what that purpose is , and why it was initiated with such daily publicity.

Grassy Knoll

I think Covneys approach is sensible - absorption capacity does not exist for huge immediate investment. The Human Resources piece needs fixing - pay, terms and conditions etc. Retention will organically build up the capacity to manage new hardware programmes some of which have a lead in time in terms of order, delivery and so on. The ‘pinnacle’ I suppose is an air policing ability - it would take a number of years to have the skills etc to manage that - assuming this is where we end up.

ancientmariner

When you have been through the system and dealt with the ritualistic Budget preparations and vain efforts to procure basic capabilities, you ask why we were not more successful and why are we in fact regressing.

Perhaps it lies in our training at higher levels where we constantly use paper capabilities and perform Exercises Without Troops (TEWTS). All this imparts knowledge of what to do if you had the assets on-call. Engaging in Fantasy can be enjoyable but preventing an incursion at sea, in the air, or a beach landing is beyond saying "BANG" with paper assets.

The only way forward is continual submission of essential needs year after year despite fiscal refusals. Build up case work and keep submitting.

jonnybigwallet

Exactly!

roadmaster

Hard know where to put this , but i see the Air Corps have launched a big internal drive for trainnie helicopter crew within in the DF. Is this not a bit like robbing peter to pay paul?

I also see a lot of the trainning is EMT releated does this maybe mean a AC112 expansion in mind?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118848351#Comment_118848351

Well if the sun is right (and doesn’t that feel strange to type) Coveney might be pushing the cabinet for doubling the budget, so who knows.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118848539#Comment_118848539

Very true but is the problem now compare to 20/30 years ago the pool instead of bring a big pool is now more like the kiddie pool

ancientmariner

Possibly we need to recruit based on two presumptions. One that the pool is better educated and they are IT savvy. That recruiting should be done on a basic medical basis, with no cadet type interviews, rather decide later in training whether they will be Finally Approved or not.

The next step is shopping for various units to meet modern infantry standards. It seems each platoon needs to have 2 LMGs per section plus an antitank and a MANPADS unit also per section backed up by Mortars and mobile SHORRAD units within Companies. It seems a battalion needs at least 50 Javelins and 50 Stingers or similar. That will have to be scaled up to two Brigades and coverage for training units, say another Brigade.

The inventory could be in the region of 600 Javelins and 600 stingers with 10 rounds for each launcher. Thereafter Naval and Air Corps needs will also have to be met.

sparky42

Interesting bit in an IT article referencing what Martin said to Orga FF recently

The Taoiseach has actually given reasonably clear signals about what this may mean. In a speech to Ógra Fianna Fáil last week he referred to Russian sea and air exercises, saying: “In the sea and air around our island we have seen actions taken which have no innocent explanation. The fact that we do not have the capacity to carry out key functions is something we simply have to address.”

Conversations with senior officials suggest that this is likely to mean that Ireland’s naval and air defence capacities, especially a radar system, will be significantly ramped up.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/evolution-of-neutrality-likely-to-be-government-s-favoured-approach-1.4848305

so between this and that article in the Mirror a couple weeks ago something like a LoA2+ perhaps? More than the €1.5 billion but short of the €3billion LoA3?

jonnybigwallet

Very interesting. Time to get the cheque book out now and start buying the kit or we'll end up at the tail end of a long queue with all the other European nations purchasing shed loads of military hardware.

roadmaster

So Putin has managed to do the following in just a few weeks.

1. United the EU

2. Saved boris's job

3. Got the shinners to change there world view

4. Got Germany to rearm (what could go wrong there)

4. Now has Finland ready to Join Nato

5. Got the Irish Public to think Maybe we should think about this whole neutrailty thing. ( This is actually mental some of my friends have always being so against the military and war etc now what us to send are missiles to ukraine!)

6. The best of all have got our leaders to say maybe we need to get proper Military gear ( Saying and Doing are two very differen things but)

So in summary Thanks Vlad for waking europe up you evil Bast@@d

jonnybigwallet

Good post Roadie!

purplepanda

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/lend-lease-for-ukraine-us-revives-wwii-anti-hitler-policy-to-defeat-putin/

So it's in effect a new American 21st century Lend Lease bill for Ukraine & NATO / Europe, does this include Moldava, Georgia & other neutral nations & could even Ireland also get some financial aid to upgrade it's military capability, in addition to the planned defence budget increases?

I'd suggest that the North Western Atlantic Ocean approaches are certainly vulnerable & the cost for proper defence for this region is beyond Ireland's ability to contribute even with a similar military budget to other European nations such as Sweden or Finland spend.

So either raise extra taxes from sectors such as those international businesses, including prominent American & European multinationals, that pay low rates on their profits in Ireland, possibly combined with air travel charges for tourist passengers such as countries like Egypt or Turkey always charge, perhaps €10-15 per return flight.

Perhaps combined with some Lend Lease financial aid as above & help from EU & NATO partners countries including Britain.

Denmark & Portugal have a balanced military between land, sea & air forces, I would suggest they are the most similar nations to Ireland in terms of strategic location. I recall reading recently, maybe in was in the Defence Commission report that a 6:2:2: ratio of Army, Naval & Air force would be ideal for Ireland.

As for the cost, it should be also noted that Defence spending was drastically reduced in real terms accounting for inflation, from the late '90's & especially since the 2008 recession crisis. In effect what the DF commission report recommends s the restoration of an adequate military budget, not a massive increase as recently portrayed by hard left politicians & their agenda.

sparky42

At the Arbor Hill event today Martin basically repeated publicly what he was saying to Ógra FF, so I guess we now have to wait and see what Coveney brings to the table in June?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908843#Comment_118908843

Maybe I missed it (apologies if I did), but from that all it says is before the Summer Recess, which has been flagged as the June Cabinet meeting (as mentioned by Coveney and others), even with the leg work being done as suggested in that post, I don't see anything to suggest something sooner?

roadmaster

Is the HSE and the Air Corps about to breakup?

Etender for HEMS based out of Cork. Cant see there being two seperate providers of this service in the long run

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/211456/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/publictenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909578#Comment_118909578

There’s already the charity one operating in Cork/Munster?

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910498#Comment_118910498

Going by that tender there services will no longer be needed

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910571#Comment_118910571

Indeed, have they run into financial issues or something? Seem to remember the Commission Report suggesting a second helicopter but this seems different.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910800#Comment_118910800

If they have a private contactor service for the south i caan only see them doing the same for the north eventually maybe based out of Knock?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118910837#Comment_118910837

I doubt it will go to the house before recess, I’m more expecting it to go to cabinet and then spend the summer recess arguing with DOD and Finance and it be voted on by the time of the budget in October, maybe it happens in May but no earlier than that I would think.

donvito99

https://www.defencetalk.com/military/forums/t/nzdf-general-discussion-thread.6137/page-345#post-403002

Not sure where to post, but it is rumoured (link) that 20-30 NZLAVs have been sold and to be refurbished to this end.

Is there any Irish RFP that tallies with this kind of acquisition?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118912431#Comment_118912431

Not really off the top of my head, isn’t the only current/future procurement that we know of for the RG32s? The NZLAVs would be a whole other animal.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118912547#Comment_118912547

We may get full value for the ship and get them to throw in there fleet of NH90s as well

sparky42

Bit more from Coveney regarding the next steps (and why it's going to be a while anyway), though he's being slightly optimistic when he suggests the underinvestment only dates to the 1970's:

The world is living through a “far more unpredictable and unstable security environment” and Ireland needs to respond to that, Minister for Foreign Affairs and Defence Simon Coveney has said.

However, Mr Coveney also cautioned against a “knee-jerk reaction” to the war in Ukraine in terms of the State’s defence and security provision.

The Minister was speaking at the Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence on Tuesday, which was considering legislation to provide for members of the Military Police to take and use DNA samples to investigate crimes within the Defence Forces.

The Defence Forces (Evidence) Bill 2019 also will establish a DNA (Military Police) Database System, to be administered by Forensic Science Ireland, to hold DNA profiles generated from samples.

Responding to questions from Sinn Féin TD John Brady, Mr Coveney said he wanted to bring a paper to the Government in response to the Commission on the Defence Forces in June.

The commission published its final report earlier this year and found that the current Defence Forces’ capacity would leave the country without a credible military capability to protect Ireland.

Mr Coveney said the context in which the commission’s report was being considered had changed in relation to the war in Ukraine.

“Every country in the European Union is now looking again at defence provision and security issues,” he said.

“I don’t think we should have a knee-jerk reaction in that regard but I certainly think we are living in a far more unpredictable and unstable security environment, not just on this continent but globally and I think we need to respond to that.”

Mr Coveney said the vast majority of the commission’s recommendations would cost money and party leaders and Government Ministers had to be consulted to ensure that “what I bring to Government is something that’s supported”.

“There will be a lot of work on that over the next six to eight weeks before we actually bring a report to Government,” he said.

He said the report would then be debated in the Dáil and Seanad, and will be brought before the Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence.

Mr Coveney said there had been “decades of underinvestment in defence infrastructure” in Ireland by consecutive governments that dated back to the 1970s.

“We need to correct that. We can’t do it overnight. Even if we could do it – financially – overnight, the Defence Forces wouldn’t be able to respond to a dramatic increase in financial resourcing in one or two years,” he added.

In relation to the Defence Forces (Evidence) Bill 2019, he said he looked forward to “hopefully getting this legislation into law before the summer recess”.

Mr Coveney said he believed no political party had an issue with the legislation, adding: “It is about ensuring that there are appropriate mechanisms to investigate crimes within the military system.”

Manic Moran

Is not DNA taken from all soldiers by default? It’s used for identification of battle casualties in our case (if you just find a leg, for example), but I guess criminal investigation would be a useful side effect.

roadmaster

17 Acres have come up for sale next to Gormanstown camp. Would the DF be worth looking at it to secure land around the base

donvito99

Chile took the NZLAVs.

sparky42

I posted an earlier version of this in the interesting article thread but the IT has updated it, and yeah it’s pretty much the LoA2 increase of €500 million, but apparently this is a huge amount of money that will take many years to add in (let’s ignore how much other departments get in supplementary budgets, or how much DOD will return unspent anyway), so maybe the MRV gets ordered finally, a couple more helicopters, radar, new vehicles and maybe a transport capability…

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-s-defence-spending-set-to-rise-by-at-least-50-says-coveney-1.4864427

donvito99

Not quite sure how a humanitarian aid vessel, transport aircraft and more AW139s protects the state, but it's a start...

tippilot

Unless factored for inflation LOA 2 will hardly maintain the status quo.