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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,951 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    "Policies" that aren't reviewed on the regular/Problems that are let linger on, end up causing a headache further down the line, and the longer it isn't reviewed/fixed, the worse it gets.

    Recent developments in Ukraine have shown that Europe isn't as peachy as we all believed. And now it's not not entirely out of the question that our country may need to defend itself in the not so distant future. (By defend I mean for example not allowing Bombers from one country to fly through our airspace to attack our neighbor)

    I think the issue is not that we don't have/cant afford expensive military equipment, It's the Kleptocracy and Nepotism that exist in every organization in Ireland, including the defense forces. I get some people feel that the defense forces are one of the most upstanding organisations on the Island, but recent documentaries have shown that that's just not true.

    Tackling the "who you know" BS and Rip Off prices sub contracted agencies charge in Ireland, needs to be tackled first before any huge purchase of equipment like this could happen. Example: A hanger to house a plane that would normally cost Y would now cost Y x5. Cost of a runway would be way higher etc. All because sun contractors know there is money knocking about and they're gonna gouge the price as much as they can and deliver the absolute minimum (celtic tiger era crap apartments come to mind, there's not reason to believe supporting infra for fighter aircraft would be any different). Usually the person on the board of the sub contracting agency is "plays golf" with the local politician.

    I believe this is the reason all sorts of infra projects are not moving in Ireland, not just military related ones.

    And this has been an issue in Ireland for longer than the 70 years mentioned in the article. I've not idea how to tackle it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Are you people for real ? "Not allowing enemy bombers to fly to targets in the UK" how do you plan on stopping em chief? shoot em down is it? lol

    Meanwhile the RAF with its top notch 130ish advanced fighters is super grateful to its savior Ireland with its 16 odd f15's. lmao

    The logic is hilarious or the lack of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,493 ✭✭✭sparky42


    First off, do you really think such issues only exist in Ireland? Hell we’re below average compared to some EU nations let alone regimes like Russia, second we are talking about defence related issues, backhanders and trade offs are par for the course for pretty much very nation in that regards (some are better at hiding it than others) but since we don’t even have a domestic defence industry we just end up screwed anyway both by that lack, and by the weaknesses of the DOD procurement team.

    As for issues in the wider economy, that’s more to do with the fact that we are effectively at full economic employment in the economy and absolutely within the Construction sector meaning it doesn’t really matter how much money you throw at things, it can’t be spent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,951 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    The fact UK needs to defend Irish airspace as a proxy to defending itself is the issue. Not how many planes they or we have. Like if the UK decided to just stop intercepting Russian planes and just left them fly across Ireland (up as far as the Irish Sea). We'd probably be unaffected initially, but long term, how do you think that might play out?

    Fully agree with you!

    However I believe our population density relative to our peers in the EU combined with the fact we are an island nation exasperates issue. Not to mention our expectations on any Project X given the level of development our country is at.

    Like we have just 4 very big civil engineering, 2 electro mechanical and 1 Process engineering companies here. We're kinda at the mercy of these guys if we need a project done.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    They arent going to stop though out of self preservation alone they will keep doing it, they would probably be on standby regardless of if we have an airforce or not.

    I just dont see why our first port of call is fighter jets, its a very childish and naïve solution, with limited thought and mostly wanted because of the "cool" factor. There isnt much thought given to the consequences of using these weapons, especially on nations like Russia, i bet everyone roaring for jets wouldn't be as quick about it if missiles started raining down in response to us shooting down a Russians aircraft. The cool factor would be gone fairly quick when family members are dead because of a bombing in retaliation to the downing of there aircraft.

    Its not a game, and there is no point sending up jets unless we are willing to use them, which in this case the cure would be far worse than the poison. I'd sooner let em fly harmlessly over rather than force conflict out of ego. What are they gonna see anyway? nothing its Ireland.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 319 ✭✭mupper2


    A couple of years ago Turkey shot down a russian Su-24 get in their airspace...russia did *checks notes*...nothing.

    But beside that scenario how does ever other grown up country manage this but some how we can't because someone might get mad at us for doing what almost every other country does....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,493 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Agree with you, one of the things “forgotten” during the Crash when everyone was cursing everything to do with construction was exactly what you mentioned, how many important contractors went under or were bought up leaving the market massively reduced and the total workforce for major capital projects crippled. But the time to change that is decades in the past now, and I can’t really think of how it can be changed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Let me do a quick fact check on auld Turkey there.

    *Checks Facts*


    Big Army

    Big Air Force

    In NATO

    Is Ireland comparable to Turkey in any case or scenario X


    Id argue we are the most grown up country we don't provoke other countries, we don't have a pissing contest with our shiny toys when someone fly's in our airspace everyone lives and the dramatics are spared. It has served us well for decades if its not broke don't fix it.

    We are in no danger and are geographically safe as houses.

    But of course that isn't glorious enough for some need that ole dog fight and cool jets.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,054 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Geographically safe as houses, but yet bombed in WWII. Ships were sank off our shores.

    If it wasn't limitation then it certainly isn't now.

    Recently infrastructure and commercial activity has been threatened, interfered with. That it only increasing.

    So wrong again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 319 ✭✭mupper2


    I'm actually one of those people who isn't pushed about getting fighters...fighters are step 275 in a process and we're on step 2. Lot of capabilities, resources and remedies we need before that...the problem is people who want no steps to be taken at all about anything because someone else will take care of it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Steps to where exactly? Im all for taking action and improving the country but it has to make sense.

    When we get to step 275 and have a few operational jets and the Russians do infringe on our airspace whats the plan then? If we send up jets we are sending a clear message saying "do as we say or we will kill you". And should they not comply and we do shoot them down... whats your plan then?

    See the problem?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Its 2023 not 1940 things have changed significantly we are currently safe as houses in a geographical sense. You think us having a few jets is going to stop any of that? I see you failed to answer my last question.

    "Ok grand there is a credible threat, you have been granted 30 fighter jets, the russians arent responding do we fire? if we do and down there aircraft what do we do then? We would now be in open conflict with Russia. But we have dealt with the threat."

    Please do tell us all your grand plan once we have used our new shiny jets to shoot down a Russian aircraft to defend our infrastructure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,493 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Its always amazing to me how so many other nations can manage to invest and sustain their militaries, yet somehow we in Ireland have a huge faction that think either a) its somehow an impossibility full stop to do, or b) somehow makes everyone else stick a label on us saying "Neutral, do not touch", rather than "LOL, soft target for whatever we want to do".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 319 ✭✭mupper2


    Steps to a viable national secruity systems and the supporting architecture for it, You're on about jets like it's a hobby horse that everthing is riding on, we could buy a SQN of Gripens tomorrow but it would be years before we'd even get deliveries never mind IOC capability.

    The list of thinggs that need attention before jets even enter the equation for us is lengthy, from the basics of PPE for infantry to new ships and aircraft to proper cyber security and intelligence agencies etc etc and with those are legislation etc


    You're focusing on jets because it's easy to mock but we have close to zero modern capabilities...when the HSE was hacked we had to ask various foreign agencies to help because our own was funded like it was a kids coding dojo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,493 ✭✭✭sparky42




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    We are not and never will be a military powerhouse... its not hard to understand. Having a few jets and a couple of boats isnt gonna all of a sudden make us invincible, if Russia doesn't give a **** about the RAF and nuclear armed UK do you honestly think us wasting billions on jets will make a difference. Even if we had the jets they could fly thru anyway because we know what we'd get if we shot one of em down.

    I always laugh at the idea of overhauling the Irish military a nation on a tiny island with 0 resources and a tiny population along with 0 alliances and yet you have people on here that think we can stand alone and deter or slug it out with Russian.

    The scary thing is these people see no flaws in the logic and are utterly convinced they are right.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 319 ✭✭mupper2


    I don't know what he is and to be honest I don't care, I'm going on 50/50 good faith and just laying it out there for whomever wants to read it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,493 ✭✭✭sparky42


    What do you think has been happening for decades already? Finland and Sweden have always protected their airspace by intercepting Russian flights, when intercepted the Russians alter course, just as they do to NATO flights (though somewhat more recklessly), during the Cold War more than once Finnish and Swedish ships would harass Russian Submarines that were in their waters, and no war broke out. Same for interceptions of Russian and Chinese aircraft by Asian air forces almost daily, all of which happens without shoot downs or war, but somehow you seem to have the opinion that Ireland having the same capability that many nations have will somehow end differently to all the other examples day in day out?

    So why exactly do you put forward that an unarmed Russian aircraft pissing around in our controlled airspace when challenged would decide to change decades of set operational responses when challenged?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    We are never going to invest the money required to be competitive in any of the fields you mentioned, Its simply not feasible and we will always be asking for help, infact if we ever want to be secure in a military sense then its joining NATO and spending the money required or nothing it really is that simple.

    Cyber security would be far more beneficial to the nation than jets though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    No one is trolling on here its an actual discussion of both sides of the topic, grow up and stop using childish terms like troll. Just because you're not getting the little echo chamber you want.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    He labels anyone that doesnt agree with him a troll, from what i gather he has been doing it for years on this thread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,054 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    It's not a discussion when one side hasn't basic knowledge of the subject.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,054 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Things have got more accessable not less.

    Trying to appease Russia, or ignore them has not worked well. They've already threatened the country more than once, with no provocative.

    Policing them has worked though. Which you would know if you'd had any knowledge of the issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,054 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Cyber security won't help if they cut our cables to the resources.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,054 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    i know vastly more than you and have ran you round in circles with fact and logic.

    You fancy yourself an expert but you have been coming up embarrassingly short unfortunately regurgitating things you read on google doesn't cut the mustard when you speaking to someone like me.

    Anyone that thinks Ireland alone can mount anything more than a token defense instantly loses all credibility. Advocating for jets and all this other nonsense is genuinely laughable and fact is we haven't got them and we wont be getting them anytime soon thankfully the majority of people see the stupidity of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Still havent got an answer for what you ll do after you used your little shiny jets that you want come on answer the question Mr.Expert you shoot down a russian aircraft whats next? Yeah your little fantasy falls flat when it meets reality doesnt it.

    And you think we can stop the Russians... yet claims to have vast knowledge on the subject lol

    How have we got by for decades with out jets?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Its grand proper militaries with real capabilities will be dealing with the situation then. If you had any knowledge of the situation. Also ireland wont be stopping them ever from cutting cables.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,054 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I just corrected your many errors with links to the facts. If you dispute facts and history you need to take that up whomever wrote it.

    You don't need to expert to take a minute to research the subject. You just didn't bother.

    For example you still can't move past the idea the policing our airspace means fighting WW3 for some reason.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    You cant even answer basic questions on the plan your advocating which is genuinely hilarious and speaks volumes.

    In your plan when you're policing the Russians and they don't comply will you shoot them down?

    The fact is for decades we have never needed jets and to this day don't have them and as a nation have not suffered any consequences for that it reinforces the lack of need for them.

    I am genuinely delighted there is next to no backing for this moronic proposal and that the money will be spent better elsewhere hopefully on housing or healthcare which will have tangible returns rather than airshow fodder for top gun fanboys on boards.



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