Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Dohvolle · 06-12-2022 3:47am

This is Ukraine's "Black Buck" moment. Tactically questionable, but strategically puts the enemy on edge, demonstrating their reach. Some bomber units will now realise they are no longer "death from afar".

Moscow is also in Range.

Lorddrakul · 06-12-2022 11:54am

I know we are getting off topic here but this is an interesting development.

In this context, it is likely to be a domestically developed capability.

For this reason: There was an interesting piece in the recent Spectator Magazine that was referenced on the Torygraph podcast on Ukraine.

TLDR: The reason that there has been such reluctance, and sometimes baffling pull backs, on advanced arms being supplied to Ukraine is China.

The US and China have had back channel talks open where China has agreed to rein in the worst of the Russian excesses in return for restraint from the western allies in supplying the more advanced and particularly long range weapons to UF.

Don't know how this has played out in relation to the recent wave of infrastructure attacks, but it is well argued, if a little weakly supported.

So, if China is restraining Putin on the use of nuclear or anything seen as out of bounds, in return for the west not supplying the more sophisticated, long range stuff, Ukraine is stuck between a rock and hard place and having to come up with its own. But as the marine drone has shown, they are certainly up to the challenge.

I'd imagine Israel has no such qualms in sharing tech they see as being in their interests.

sparky42 · 06-12-2022 12:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962842#Comment_119962842

Israel isn't doing jack in this war effectively. Between their concerns about how many Jews are in Russia and the backdoor deal they have with Moscow allowing them to strike in Syria when they want to they have refused to send equipment to Ukraine, even going to the point of releasing a statement after a Israeli MRAP was spotted in action, pointing out that it had been sold to a European country and wasn't from Israel.

Lorddrakul · 06-12-2022 12:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962872#Comment_119962872

Interesting.

I have heard a few coomentators say that Israel is sharing tech with the Ukrainians to make their own smart kit. Of course, I'm relying mostly on OSINT on Twitter, which is bit like basing a PhD on Wikipedia, but still. :)

There's speculation that intel and technqiues are being supplied, in cooperation with the US to increase UF effectiveness outside the pure battle theatre.

But, as I said, OSINT - you takes your chances.

Markcheese · 06-12-2022 2:21pm

Israel the country will have a position , ( and that's very hands off )

Israeli business is a very different situation , as long as it's not out right treason, and can all be handled discreetly, then it's just business ..

saabsaab · 10-12-2022 11:10pm

Spending lots of money doesn't mean better.

https://eurasiantimes.com/buying-f-35-fighters-biggest-mistake-of-australia-us-jets/

Dohvolle · 11-12-2022 10:26am

Many have been fooled by the great F35 Marketing machine. Including the US military who are now seeking low-cost alternatives immediately while the parts availability of the F35 is worked out.

Markcheese · 11-12-2022 11:02am

Yeah , but a lot of smart money has been put on them also - it's a stealth multirole aircraft anyone who thought it'd be cheap was mad ..

What it does do ,is buy you into a stronger security arrangement with the US, and the knowledge that this plane is going to be supported for the next 50 years at least -

Spares are currently a glitch- that'll get sorted

Not surprised the Finn's went for it, or the Aussies , kinda surprised the swiss did..

roadmaster · 11-12-2022 11:05am

With the amount of orders it has will the price not come down?

The USAF are even reordering the F15.

Dohvolle · 11-12-2022 11:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119982800#Comment_119982800

Perhaps, but as we have seen, changes of government may see reduction in investment in the very programs supposed to support the operation of this type. Its a big gamble.

Larbre34 · 11-12-2022 7:44pm

No, the costs won't come down.

The sunk costs are likely apportioned over 20 years and then the cost of component materials are continuing to skyrocket.

It seems to me that planes like F-35 are falling between the stools of traditional air superiority fighters like the F-15 and advanced drones and smart weapons.

When 700 B-21s are in service, what use will the F-35 be other than picket protection for Carriers and the like

saabsaab · 11-12-2022 8:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119982800#Comment_119982800

Reading the article it seems to be a crock. Any modern jet that can't maintain supersonic speed for more than a few minutes, needs expensive servicing and may have a normal range of only 500K is just not good enough. MIG 29 would probably be better!

sparky42 · 11-12-2022 10:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984627#Comment_119984627

Where are you getting 700 B21s from? There will never be anything like that number. As to the article from memory the person quoted has been plugging that position since the F35 project started, the reality is the 35 is the only game in town for 5th aircraft right now and likely to be the one with the largest user base and supply chain. As yet the US hasn’t made any comment on whether or not their next gen fighter will be restricted like the F22 but even if it isn’t you are talking next decade at best for it starting to enter service.

Larbre34 · 11-12-2022 11:25pm

That is of course a typo, the USAF plans to operate 100 B-21s, not 700!

sparky42 · 11-12-2022 11:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119985457#Comment_119985457

That makes more sense, even for the US budget 700 would be beyond huge.

saabsaab · 12-12-2022 12:30am

Per a net report

'The most expensive fighter jet in history is also one of the least reliable.

Earlier this year, the U.S. Air Force tacitly admitted that the F-35 fighter jet was a failure. A very expensive, time-consuming failure.

The F-35 was supposed to be a low-cost, lightweight fighter jet. But with a cost of around $100 million per jet and project delays now stretching into double digits, the F-35 is one of the most high-profile failures in the history of military procurement.'

sparky42 · 12-12-2022 1:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119985665#Comment_119985665

Outside of selling it to the powers that be (ie politicians) nobody was talking about it being "low cost", sure as hell not when the demand for "joint" came into play, and every single military procurement is sold as "low cost" until it isn't. As to whether it's a "failure",given it's limited combat activities so far how can anyone outside of the militaries running it be able to judge it? The USAF buying the new build F15's for example are for a specific purpose, not to replace the 35, meanwhile the Next Gen fighter is to replace the F22 not the 35.

At least some of the "comments" and "articles" online remind me of that nutter that thinks ground vehicles ended with the M113 and everything else is shite, or the guys that think the A10 is somehow magical and can win any battle...

jonnybigwallet · 12-12-2022 8:31am

The Aussies are very unimpressed with theirs.

roadmaster · 12-12-2022 9:33am

The Auld Aussies dont have the best of luck with gear it seams from Rifles, Helicopters and now jets. Very bad luck or something else is going wrong

saabsaab · 12-12-2022 11:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119985997#Comment_119985997

No wonder. It may be very advanced but if it doesn't have range, speed endurance and is out of action much of the time what good is it? Maybe the USA is the only country that can afford to keep enough of them in the air.

banie01 · 12-12-2022 11:23am

The F35 in Australian service has serious drawbacks IMO. Range is of paramount importance to Australian ops. The ability to put air assets deep into the Indian Ocean and South China Sea are vital to protect what Aussies think are their areas of most threat.

I'm a pretty firm believer in the capabilities of the F35 as a force multiplier. It's ability to link it's sensor data, the capability of the AESA radar in LPI surveillance, tracking, EW and passing of that data to other platforms for targeting is going to be a huge asset.

That capability requires heavily armed platforms with long range/endurance to fully utilise. That isn't going to be the F35. The combat radius is @ 900km and without A2A refueling that range just isn't enough for the Aussies IMO. The US vision of the F35 as a QB linking the launcher to the combat picture, is IMO a credible one and the rumblings from red flag over the last few years all point to it being a game changer. That's within US operational model of huge A2A refueling, Air Surveillance and lots of strike aircraft. At present? The Aussies have 24 F18E/F and the balance of their Air combat platforms are F35s with AFAICR 72 ordered?

A much more capable force for what is primarily a long range strike and sea control role would surely have been a reversal of those numbers? Would have been going 72 Super hornet and 24 F35.

PS: as an added aside. The Aussies seem to always have serious maintenance issues with any kit they buy. Now granted modern Weapon Platforms are complex, but? Is there more to it? Poor spec and requirement ID? Poor training for maintainers? Just plain old awful decision making?

Markcheese · 12-12-2022 11:24am

It was kind of surprising that the Aussies went all in on the f35 ,just from a range point of view , Australia is huge , and they like to project far north of the country ..

Larbre34 · 12-12-2022 11:44am

I often suspect the harsh conditions in Australia has a lot to do with it.

They do also operate 7 modern tankers, so maybe range isn't a massive issue in peacetime, but I'd say they'd be easily stretched by China operating from island air bases if push came to shove

roadmaster · 12-12-2022 12:01pm

Would the fact that some of the weapons are manufactured locally such as the styer have anything to with it? They would not have mass production and the same quality experience as orginal manufactures