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Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

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Comments



  • RIP.ie would be a good place to start.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    Warning applied. Mod note in post below.

    Post edited by Big Bag of Chips on


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,482 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    @323 made a claim. Surely it’s for them to back it up with a link to the report they read rather than everyone else look at Rip.ie that does not contain every death in the country.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,063 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Was rip.ie the way which Pfizer tracked the effects of the vaccines during their trials? Was there even any trials done in Ireland as it would seem a strange place to get their data.



  • Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭AerLingus747


    that's not how it works in the conspiracy forum.... you just need to allude to something then make up some percentage without any backup... 126% of contributors agree



  • Administrators Posts: 13,760 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    @323 you need to do better than this. Please use links/reports to support your claim. If you continue to post figures as fact without backing it up you will be thread banned.



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  • Administrators Posts: 13,760 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    @[Deleted User] RIP.ie holds no statistics or medical history. It certainly can not prove 23% excess mortality during vaccine trials. Stop with the non-sensical bad faith posting. This is your last warning on this thread. Next will be a thread ban.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,445 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    This trawling Rip.ie thing. Its so weird. And lots of people are doing it.

    "Oh suddenly or unexpected, its the vaccine!!"

    Lockdowns were not good for some peoples brains.



  • Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭AerLingus747


    It's a bit sick to be honest.... I know of 2 deaths locally that the local cranks tried to attach to the vaccine... which were underlying medical conditions ... which they then tried to attribute those to the vaccine, even though one of the dead hadn't been vaccinated... some people are just genuinely nuts, it must be horrible to have that level of mistrust in your life.



  • Administrators Posts: 13,760 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    @AerLingus747 I've deleted one of your posts that was off-topic and not relevant to the thread.

    All posters are asked to stick to discussing the topic, not other posters.





  • Yet more evidence that the vaccines were promoted for the financial benefit for the health providors as opposed to the general well-being of the general public.

    Would medical professionals have been so keen to promote the vaccines if it wasn't for the financial incentives?

    As this is from one individual US health provider, we really need to be questioning the health providers in other countries, in particular the Irish providers as there is clear support for their use here.




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  • It depends on whether the people you are putting your trust in have your best interests at heart or their financial interests when providing the advice that you are expected to trust.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,853 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Have you forgotten the rollouts in MVCs in Ireland? How are you going to try to spin financial incentives to that one?

    Why would Anthem be so keen to promote covid vaccination? That's the question you forgot to ask.

    Do you know who Anthem are? They are not a vaccine provider. They are a health insurer. They pick up the tab if you are sick and have cover with them. Their financial benefit in this case IS the general well-being of the general public.

    Why would Anthem be paying for a service (covid vaccine) unless they thought it would lead to less claims, less hospitalisations, less of their members needing medicines and medical care???

    In Ireland, for example, LAYA offer free flu vaccines to their large corporate clients. Paying for flu vaccine is cheaper for them than dealing with the claims from people sick from flu.

    This really is a nothing story. Actually more than that, once again you are trying to spin a story against vaccines that actually spins the other way. Backfire again.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,853 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    If you get sick from covid and need continual medical engagement, that's a cash cow for your medical provider.

    Vaccination is NOT in the financial interests of someone paid to provide you medical care. It is in the financial interest of those who have to pick up the bill for that care whether in public hospitals or private insurance.

    Your proposition is based on a false premise.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)





  • Not correct, vaccination of people who receive no benefit (they got covid anyway) or suffer adverse reactions to it, is detrimental to their well-being. So it was mainly in the financial interests of the producers to get as many as possible jabbed, history has proven this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,718 ✭✭✭silliussoddius




  • Registered Users Posts: 27,853 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Anthem aren't a vaccine producer, and nowhere did I mention vaccine producers. I specifically referenced the entities picking up the tab - governments, hospitals, healthcare insurer providers. So your premise falls at the first hurdle.

    You are sowing confusion by misrepresenting Anthem as a vaccine producer and then saying it was in the financial interests of producers. But Anthem are not a vaccine producer. Nor are the Irish government who paid for the MVCs and vaccine rollout here and pick up the tab for covid hospital care.

    The comparitive figures for those needing medical care and hospitalisation for vaccinated versus unvaccinated from covid clearly shows why healthcare providers were keen to emphasise the benefits of vaccination. Vaccination has prevented countless hospitalisations (not to mention deaths).

    The evidence for these figures has been cited on the thread multiple times - studies such as the Lancet Swedish study.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,718 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    It’s like saying Sean Quinn wanted boy racers wrapping their car around a tree every night.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,063 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    And of the clients of that health insurance company who had the vaccine, how many had an adverse reaction to the vaccine versus how many of their clients were saved from more serious cases of covid and the costs that would have brought to the insurance company?

    You've taken a single small bit of information, misunderstood it, and run off in the opposite direction of what that data actually shows.



  • Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭AerLingus747


    from the example I gave, people took it upon themselves to come to a conclusion which was untrue and caused extra distress to the families involved.

    So some people took it upon themselves to try re-write facts because they don't trust people, and got involved in a situation which had zero to do with them, because they were doing as you suggested, and looked at RIP.ie ...

    Which is one of the most ridiculous situations that shouldn't even happen.. you do understand how messed up it is for people to do as you suggest?

    Mod Snip- warning applied - attack the post not the poster

    Post edited by Hannibal_Smith on




  • I replied to your question about trust, nothing about the other part of your point, I do not discuss deaths where the cause could be non vaccine related.

    RIP.ie does an increase in deaths, that increase needs to be investigated to rule in or out whether the vaccines played a part in some of the deaths and how much was as a result of medical resources being diverted from primary care.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭AerLingus747


    Bullshit... you gladly pander to people who do, then when you get associated with them it's "well I didn't say anything"..

    absolute gaslighting



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,063 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    How are deaths recorded on rip.ie? Are all deaths logged? Who by? Are medical details logged? Are patient histories logged? Which government department is responsible for the administration of the data recorded on rip.ie?


    Or is rip.ie a silly place to look for official statistics on anything at all?



  • Administrators Posts: 13,760 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    Please stop with bringing RIP.ie into the discussion. I'm sure doctors, coroners, medical scientists, government whoever else might want to investigate such matters will have more concrete data than RIP.ie to go on if necessary.

    RIP.ie is an optional extra offered to families as part of funeral arrangements. There is a cost associated with listing arrangements. Maybe the increase in listings is due to the rise in popularity/prominence of the site? More people using it, so more people use it.

    There is no evidence to be gathered from RIP.ie other than number of listings. Nothing else is possible to glean from it.

    Next poster to mention RIP.ie will be thread banned permanently and forum banned for 2 weeks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,765 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    The vaccines reduced hospitalizations and deaths from Covid by up to 80% (depending on variant) A lot of people caught Covid and didn't die because of them. They also reduced transmission by varying degrees (depending on variant).

    Your financial gain thing is appeal to motive. Vaccines cost money to research, develop and produce. Companies are getting revenue for producing vaccines that have saved a significant number of lives.





  • While I agree that people who are in such poor health that any minor virus could kill them should have been given the vaccine, despite the risks associated, as in their case the risk benefit falls on the benefit side of the equation.

    On the other hand, pushing the vaccine onto healthy people is totally wrong for all the reasons that have been pointed out above many times before.

    In these cases, the motive is clearly a profit before health, having governments & their media (along with many others) scaring the general population into taking a jab that was for the vast majority, unnecessary and for some caused severe side affects.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,853 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Can you explain how the Irish government or insurers such as Anthem made a profit from the vaccinations?

    Your post makes no sense and is no explanation at all.

    You repeated this accusation against Anthem until it had to be pointed out to you, you didn't understand their role. This is a just a re-hash of the same discredited accusation. You haven't even tried to explain a 'profit motive' for the decision to rollout vaccines yet continually repeat it.

    You seem to present vaccine producers, governments, and media as one single entity with the same motive when this is without foundation. And simply wrong.

    Your post contains multiple other pieces of medical misinformation and half truths.

    There's a chasm of difference between "healthy" people and "people who are in such poor health that any minor virus could kill them" and it is utterly disingenuous to present it in those terms. We can see from the ICU and hospitalisation figures that many people ended up there who don't meet your deceptive definitions - but especially those older in age or with preconditions. This is a significant percentage of the adult population of the country.

    Vaccination was recommended to age groups based on:

    • The risks of covid exceeding the risks of vaccination (by a wide margin) to the person directly. So your argument that it was unnecessary is refuted on those grounds.
    • Reduction in infections and transmission. Even if the vaccines didn't block infection 100% the evidence has been presented on the thread showing reduction of infections (and therefore transmission) of vaccinated people. And also vaccinated people being less infectious. This is important from a public health perspective.
    • So governments looked at those figures and that is why they rolled out vaccines. Zero profit motive. A desire to protect the population and reduce demands on the health service. Entirely legitimate government concerns.

    What we have seen to try to counter that evidence on the thread is attempts to judge 2021 decisions made on the basis of Pre-Omicron variants, unvaccinated population) with 2022 data (Omicron, mostly vaccinated population).

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,765 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Over 6 million people died from Covid in just 2 years. It's estimated to have killed 80,000 health professionals around the world. Those professionals were in "poor health"? Did they all have "underlying conditions"?

    The risks from the vaccines are extremely low. Like ridiculously low, studies point to single digit numbers of fatalities out of millions. The risks from Covid are much higher than that. Blood clots are higher with Covid, myocarditis is substantially higher with Covid.

    If you are genuinely concerned about straight up risk, it's far, far higher with Covid than with the vaccines.





  • It's estimated to have killed 80,000 health professionals around the world.

    Do you have any reference for that?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,718 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    do you really believe all of this or did you dip your toe into the antivax pool and have waded too far in to walk back?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,853 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    This is the study for health care professionals

    And this is the UK ONS data which looks at covid related deaths and breaks it down by age and pre-conditions.

    In 2020, 10% of UK deaths were in under 65s and of those 20% were without pre-conditions. Of those with pre-conditions, it does not support your contention about people "in such poor health". Many of the conditions are livable with for decades if managed with medications etc such as diabetes, blood pressure, COPD.

    And those are the deaths only, if we were to look at figures for hospitalisations and ICU admissions, we could reasonably expect to see a similar or even larger proportion from these groups based on survivability profile.

    In Ireland in 2020 for ICU covid admissions, the largest numbers were from age group 55-64.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/preexistingconditionsofpeoplewhodiedduetocovid19englandandwales

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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