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Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,723 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    AZ is safe and effective.

    People die as a result of seat-belts. Seat-belts are very safe. Those two sentences are not mutually exclusive.

    However if vaccine X is infinitesimally safer than vaccine Y, and they both do the same thing, then vaccine X might be dropped.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,723 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    We're back to VAERS/Yellowcard reports again.

    To explain this (for the 50th time), if there was a report card for an adverse effect within 4 weeks of e.g. eating mackerel, there would be millions of reports.

    That's how VAERs, Yellowcard, etc works. Experts analyse the reports to see if there are any variations outside the expected results.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    Good grief. Are you ever sickened by your own level of obedience? Every morning I thank the Heaven's that there will always be a sizeable chunk of populations that don't swallow everything the government/media try to ram down our throats

    Here we have more attempts to normalise what were unprecedented government intrusions. "Getting vaccines is just like eating a fish!". Maybe to you it is Dohnjoe.

    How many times have you seen the world population being shoehorned into eating mackerel? (or in the case of mRNA vaccines - three-headed, neon mackerels)

    -----------

    Warning applied for breach of charter

    Post edited by Hannibal_Smith on


  • Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭AerLingus747


    Mackerel with garlic butter is amazing, you picked a poor analogy



  • Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭AerLingus747



    So for a week (13/12/21) where there was roughly 3.9 million doses administered, there were roughly 4,400 ADR's ...meaning a reported issue in 0.001% of vaccines... (1 in 100,000).

    Thank you for highlighting this. This shows the vaccine is safer than paracetamol.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,051 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    You couldn't possibly have missed this line at the top of the page, could you?

    It is important to note that reported adverse reactions have not been proven to be related to the vaccine and should not be interpreted as a list of known side effects.


    We have been over the Yellowcard system multiple times, and I think it was only a day or so ago that it last got a mention as someone was incorrectly using the numbers to support their lies. It doesn't support your argument and never did. Why repeatedly keep returning to use the same data that does nothing for you?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,949 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Free jab? So government did not have to pay for them and still continue to receive them free of charge? Are the vaccine centers staffed with volunteers?

    This exercise in futility actually cost us dearly and cost keeps rising.



  • Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭AerLingus747


    considering the state of the Irish public health system and the amount of hospitalisations avoided, it's probably the best and cheapest investment the government have applied to the country in the name of health, in decades.

    edit: also subsidised by the EU as part of collective purchasing



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,949 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Of course, but only if you are firm believer. You got to believe that there were "hospitalizations avoided" to come up with statement like that.

    Anyway, placebo tends to have the same effect.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,648 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    No they don't. This is a statement of fact that is without foundation. Completely blatant medical misinformation.

    There is no placebo for respiratory viruses that even begins to approach the effectiveness of covid vaccines at preventing hospitalisation and death.

    And you talk about "you got to believe". You have absolutely no evidence to support your statement re: placebos. When it is obvious your position on vaccines is not evidence based.

    The effectiveness of vaccination versus hospitalisation is borne out in study after study, country after country. This is but one of them. The effectiveness wanes but 64% is significant protection - where's your placebo that trumps that?

     For the outcome of severe COVID-19, vaccine effectiveness waned from 89% (82 to 93; p<0·001) at 15–30 days to 64% (44 to 77; p<0·001) from day 121 onwards.

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-67362200089-7/fulltext

    Post edited by odyssey06 on

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,949 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Where did I say specifically that there is placebo for respiratory viruses? You seems to jump in conclusion before realizing that most of blatant medical misinformation comes from your overreaction where you "think" what people say even though they never said such thing.

    Placebo effect is fairly common and understood by medical community and in case you do not know here is how for example harward medical school define it:

    The "placebo effect" is a phenomenon in which the brain convinces the body that a fake treatment is real and can stimulate healing. It has been found to be just as effective as traditional treatments under certain circumstances, and some researchers now recommend comparing an experimental treatment with an existing one when possible.

    This was observed even during covid vaxx trials where on average about 30% of placebo recipients reported various systemic adverse events. It also works the other way where vaxx recipients think they were saved from hospitalization even though there is absolutely no way to say or predict if they would end up hospitalized.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,648 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Yes I know about the placebo effect which is why I understand the misinformation and half truths in your post. The placebo effect is a lot more nuanced and complicated than that short summary you have listed, and the effect varies dramatically depending on the type of disease.

    Someone who got the placebo (or vaccine) could have a heart attack or medical issue manifest in the trial period post injection. That gets reported. Doesn't mean there's any connection to the injection. And there are rare cases of injuries received from injection - or any substance, placebo or medicine or anything.

    Sure why not get rid of all medicines then and rely entirely on the placebo effect if they "tend to have to same effect"??? Would you say "placebo tends to have the same effect as antibiotics"???

    So how about reading your own posts - this was your quote: "Anyway, placebo tends to have the same effect."

    And the studies cited aren't talking about people who 'think' they were saved from hospitalization. But actual hospitalization records based on vaccination status.

    So no they don't "tend to have the same effect", and to suggest the effectiveness of the vaccination is comparable in that way to placebo is medical misinformation without foundation or merit.

    My point stands:

    The effectiveness of vaccination versus hospitalisation is borne out in study after study, country after country. This is but one of them. The effectiveness wanes but 64% is significant protection - where's your placebo that trumps that?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,949 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    As I said. You tend to go to overdrive attributing posters various scenarios which result mostly from taking quotes out of context and your overthinking.

    Besides, they do have the same effect as it was demonstrated time and again when we were constantly reprimanded that taking vaxx does not mean we should stop being afraid. Literally thousands of articles and quotes repeated ad nauseum about how vaxxed people may succumb to false security feeling and stop being careful and end up in hospital or dead. I would call it reversed placebo effect but I am not in mood to get to one of your word picking or out of context quotes duel.

    My point also stands. People believed and were led to believe that getting vaxx make them immune and they will not get covid, that was later revised to stopping transmission and that was also revised to reducing symptoms. Add little creativity and reducing symptoms become reducing transmission eve though some people still cling on "stopping transmission". People believed many promises and while reality was different it worked for some and didn't work for others. Placebo effect.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,648 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    This is the reality:

    The effectiveness of vaccination versus hospitalisation is borne out in study after study, country after country. This is but one of them. The effectiveness wanes but 64% is significant protection - where's your placebo that trumps that?

    Which you have pointedly failed to challenge with evidence, except with a smokescreen about placebos. Those results are proof positive the vaccines are significantly effective at preventing hospitalisation and death and this is not a manifestation of a mere placebo effect.

    It worked for some and didn't work for others - that vague remark could be said about any medicine. The metric is how many people did it work for - and the figures established in such studies as the below show a significant protection effect from the vaccine, entirely separate to, and dwarfing any supposed placebo effect.

    To try to dismiss that away as 'placebo effect' is completely without foundation and if you are making a statement of fact that the vaccine's effectiveness is down to placebo effect that is without question medical misinformation.

    Vaccination had a real, measurable effect at reducing hospitalisations entirely refuting your claim in post #12436

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-67362200089-7/fulltext

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭AerLingus747




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭323


    So in Switzerland, their Federal Office of Public Health now say that “no COVID-19 vaccination is recommended for spring/summer 2023.” And any doctor who does administer COVID injections will now be liable for any damage caused by the shots.

    While in the land of the free. after 1,120 days of slowing the spread, Biden has finally declared the national Covid emergency “over.”

    Does that mean that as there's no longer an emergency, the experimental COVID Shots will now have there "Emergency Use Authorisation" removed?

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭323


    So in Switzerland, their Federal Office of Public Health now say that “no COVID-19 vaccination is recommended for spring/summer 2023.” And any doctor who does administer COVID injections will now be liable for any damage caused by the shots.

    While in the land of the free. after 1,120 days of slowing the spread, Biden has finally declared the national Covid emergency “over.”

    Does that mean that as there's no longer an emergency, the experimental COVID Shots will now have there "Emergency Use Authorisation" removed?

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,648 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Not sure which country you are living in, but in Ireland \ EU they are not emergency.

    Your references to Switzerland appears to contain several incorrect statements.

    If a doctor recommends that you receive the COVID-19 vaccine because you are considered “high risk”, it will be provided free of charge, and covered by compulsory health insurance. In addition, such recommended COVID-19 vaccination will continue to be covered by subsidiary liability protection by the federal government... the doctor’s liability in vaccinating people against COVID-19 is no different from any other medical procedure or vaccination.

    And the vaccines are not 'experimental' full stop, statement of fact made without foundation as per


    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭BoxcarWilliam99


    Yes once the emergency is declared over the vaccine manufacturer's have to apply for approval.

    They were only granted emergency use



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭323


    Guessing same will have to apply in Europe if a similar end to the COVID "Emergency" were to be declared.

    The EU's equivalent Conditional Marketing Authorisation (CMA) will also come to an end.

    Good luck getting approval, with the ongoing Pfizer test data being released. (The data they had got a court order to hide for 75 years), Moderna data starts coming out next month. Will take more than a fact check statement from a PR company (Rauters) to hide the fraud.

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,723 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe




  • Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭AerLingus747


    CMA can be renewed even without "emergency" status... seasonal flu vaccine is generally under CMA...



  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭BoxcarWilliam99


    No they must apply for approval

    When the pandemic is over, the EUA cease.



  • Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭AerLingus747




  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭BoxcarWilliam99


    Contact the companies individually?

    I don't understand your point.

    Here :

    When the pandemic is over, the EUA will cease and vaccine manufacturers will need to apply for full U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval (here). No timeline on this has yet been given (here). The UK, meanwhile, has a similar mechanism (here , here).

    AP News.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,723 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    Full FDA approval has already been given for the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna vaccines



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,648 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Not sure where you are getting your information from.

    Your links are years out of date. You included a link from 2021 which has been superseded by the below from 2022.

    The bivalent booster might still be under emergency or conditional use, but the original vaccines are not.



    Post edited by odyssey06 on

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭BoxcarWilliam99


    Well that's ironic. It's from the link you posted today



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,648 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The link I posted was in reference to the false claim about it being an experimental vaccine. That was debunked by the 2021 article and such claims are obviously still false now.

    "And the vaccines are not 'experimental' full stop."

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Kilkenny Press questioning the vaccine's role in the increase in deaths in Kilkenny and many other counties.


    As stated previously there is a certain amount of subjectivity in the Sudden Death figures but the criteria are applied consistently from year to year to give valid data for comparison purposes.
    
     “Sudden Deaths are self-declared in death notices or are evident from condolences, age of victim etc. Any obvious accidents, suicides or cancer deaths are omitted,” Patrick told Kilkenny Press.
    
    “While 30% variation in such circumstances might be dismissible, a 100% increase demands questions regardless of where you think the answers lie.
    
    These figures would suggest that the massive increase in sudden deaths didn’t kick in until 2022 when over 90% of our adult population had been vaxxed as per graph.
    

    Serious questions that need serious answers, there's more to this than delayed healthcare of treatable conditions.



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