Rugby 101 - Know your rucks from your mauls!

hold my beer · 04-12-2022 07:21PM

I'm sure I've seen JGP throw the ball at an offside player on purpose a few times the last while. And he got the peno. Or maybe it was Luke

blackwhite · 04-12-2022 11:21PM

I think it depends on the situation.

If the offside player runs across the 10 channel then if the SH throws the ball at him it’s still a case of offside player obstructing the pass and a pen should be awarded, If the SH was forced to delay his pass to let the offside player get out of the way then it’s giving the defence additional time to get set.

If the offside player isn’t along a genuine passing lane then the SH throwing the ball at him isn’t a genuine passing attempt and shouldn’t be rewarded with a penalty

Quin_Dub · 05-12-2022 12:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119957609#Comment_119957609

Agreed , similar to where they pull a player over a ruck looking for a penalty and the referee won't give it (or at least shouldn't).

Ardillaun · 19-03-2023 06:42PM

Has anyone subjected games to VAR-style technology retrospectively to see how many offsides are missed?

blackwhite · 20-03-2023 10:34AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120376903#Comment_120376903

With the all the law changes focused on encouraging attacking rugby over the past few seasons, it's quite odd that there hasn't been a push for stronger refereeing of the offside line. It's a quick fix, without any law changes, that would directly make it more attractive for teams to play attacking rugby

Ardillaun · 20-03-2023 05:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120378569#Comment_120378569

I think it would slow the game at first until players got used to it but they’d learn pretty fast. Humans just aren’t able to see the small infractions. At the very least, somebody with the know how should be reviewing games and figuring out how bad the problem is.

Lost Ormond · 20-03-2023 05:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120376903#Comment_120376903

Theres probably loads of offsides but how many would be material? Its pointless anyway. You could review a lot of tackle/rucks and pull up something else each time you watch as well.

Water John · 20-03-2023 06:36PM

Yes, where it comes into life is when one team is getting close to the try line in multiple phases. Almost always the defending eventually go offside.

Each rugby game is dynamic and contains a number of actors. The chief three are, the referee and the two captains. It's through that the interpretation of the laws is implemented as the referee sees appropriate.

blackwhite · 20-03-2023 09:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120380515#Comment_120380515

It depends.

England in their best years under Eddie Jones seemed to live offside. Their defensive set was based off being up in teams faces as fast as possible and you nearly always had their 12&13 starting well ahead of the back foot. It was fundamental to how they would try to shut down teams who tried to beat the English bulk with a faster back line

Properly refereeing the offside for teams such as that would have a massive impact on the game

BoardsMember · 20-03-2023 11:14PM

What is the law related to penalties taken quickly and the defender not being back 10?

There seemed to be some technical assessment of Jonny getting over the line where I think it was Farrell was deemed not offside but seemed like maybe he was.

And then someone in the match thread suggested his line of running shepherded Jonny into a tackler.

blackwhite · 20-03-2023 11:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120381643#Comment_120381643

One a player who started from an onside position has moved forward, anyone they pass is brought onside by that player.

The logic being if they had started from an onside position they’d be no worse than they currently are once the onside player reaches them

Quin_Dub · 21-03-2023 09:58AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120381682#Comment_120381682

There's also the element that the player in front needs to be seen to move backwards.

You can't just stand there and wait to be put onside.

In the case on Saturday the ref decided that Farrell was back-pedaling and Itoje moved forward from behind the goal line and had moved ahead of Farrell before either of them made contact with Sexton putting them both onside.

If Farrell hadn't moved it would have been a penalty.

Ardillaun · 21-03-2023 09:43PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120380515#Comment_120380515

Well, what is material: 1mm, 10mm, 1000mm? Surely, some degree of offside matters or why have laws about it? Take your pick and we’ll make that the standard. At the moment, in my very inexpert opinion, there is insufficent consistency in enforcement.

Lost Ormond · 21-03-2023 10:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385578#Comment_120385578

A ruck 5m from touch and the winger of defence is a step offside and is on the far 5m line is not material. Not every offside matters. you warn player if you really need to but you dont penalise it. that isnt being inconsistent. its managing the game. you cant and wont penalise every infringement. you penalise what is material to play

like at a ruck a defending player goes off their feet but the ball is at back foot and scrum half can get ball away do you penalize. not always. you play on and warn player..

It depends on situation whether its material. you cant set a standard because it wont be met because its impossible to meet it

blackwhite · 22-03-2023 09:25AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385800#Comment_120385800

That's very different to the consistent tactic that plenty of teams employ of having a hard rush defence in the centre channels and usually starting from centre line of the ruck or even oppositions back foot, instead of starting from their own back foot line.

Ardillaun · 23-03-2023 03:06AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385800#Comment_120385800

What about defenders moving offside as the ball comes out of a ruck in front of them? Their position certainly matters. Do you think all such offenders are caught at the moment?

BoardsMember · 23-03-2023 07:37AM

TMO for the last play in the Scotland v Italy game should be shot. Fagerson miles offside stopped the try, caused the knock on.

Ardillaun · 24-03-2023 02:29AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120390367#Comment_120390367

Is there a pic of it?

Clontarf_Jazz · 16-01-2024 03:46PM

Question : Re Frawley's monster penalty versus LAR. Say in theory Leinster are given that peno & the match clock is < 90 seconds remaining. They indicate a kick @ goal. The kicker runs down the clock to the point it is now in the red & instead of going for goal he kicks the ball into touch. What is the sanction(if any against the kicker). Can he claim he sliced it. Does the kicker have to be seen to make a genuine attempt at kicking the goal. Is there a rule in the book about such an eventuality ? Just a theoretical question as if Frawley had missed & the ball hadn't gone dead there was a risk LAR could have gone the length og the field & scored an unlikely try & conversion.

aloooof · 16-01-2024 04:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624540#Comment_121624540

My understanding is it's a penalty to the other team; it has to be a legit attempt, you can't deliberately kick it into touch. (And for it to hit touch, it'd require a slice so bad that it'd be hard to argue it wasn't deliberate).

I do remember ROG having a penalty years ago and you could hear him on the ref mic asking "can I miss it badly?", a request that was denied by the ref.

theintern · 16-01-2024 04:22PM

This is explicitly covered in law by 8.20.

Side note, you said 90 seconds. That's a conversion. A penalty is 60 seconds.

8.21 The kick must be taken within 60 seconds (playing time) from the time the team indicated their intention to do so, even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. Sanction: Kick is disallowed and a scrum is awarded.

Anyway,

8.20 If the team indicates to the referee the intention to kick at goal, they must kick at goal. The intention to kick can be communicated to the referee or signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee or sand, or when the player makes a mark on the ground.

Like all laws in rugby, it's open to interpretation what the referee considers 'a kick at goal'. Referees aren't mindless machines, and in the case of a match with only a few seconds left, I think most referees would see through this and award a scrum to the opposition team.

The same applies at a restart kick. You can't just kick the ball out of play or not ten, thinking it'll cause a scrum and the match will be over. Or at a lineout, if time expires in between when the ball went out and when the throw is taken. A team that wants the game to end could throw the ball crooked on purpose to cause a scrum. But the scrum will still take place, even though time is up for exactly this reason.

Clontarf_Jazz · 16-01-2024 04:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624631#Comment_121624631

Yeah that's what I assumed - it's just I'd bever ever seem it arise in a game before. It's was like when Ireland had the 2 hookers injured v Scotland & would have had to play on with 14 through not fault of their own only Cian Healy piped up & said he'd played there at underage level (was it)

Lost Ormond · 16-01-2024 04:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624540#Comment_121624540

Has to be a genuine attempt at goal. Penalty against the team kicking thr goal if officials deem it not a genuine attempt

Lost Ormond · 16-01-2024 04:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624783#Comment_121624783

Yeah in some circumstances if you are the team to cause scrums to go uncontested you have to drop a player. Which is to stop a team who are struggling in scrum negating their oppositions strength. They lose a player as a punishment

Water John · 16-01-2024 04:47PM

Cian Healy would have to have been listed as a possible hooker option. Didn't just say, 'I did that before'.

Lost Ormond · 16-01-2024 04:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624894#Comment_121624894

Yes to be able to have contested scrums in games you must be nominated before game as a loose head or hooker or tight head on team sheet handed to officials/match organisers before gamr starts.

sydthebeat · 16-01-2024 05:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624894#Comment_121624894

agreed, healy would have to have been listed a hooker replacement on the official paperwork pre game.

Quin_Dub · 16-01-2024 05:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624753#Comment_121624753

I remember a video clip from a few years ago of Ruan Pienaar , playing in France (where they've had the kick clock for a while) deliberately standing and watching the clock tick down - He was ready to go with about 40 seconds left , but he just stood there with the crowd completely losing it before he finally moved with about 5 seconds to go and the ref blew the final whistle then.

Found the clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02iNQu87Yco&ab_channel=Rugbydump2015

theintern · 17-01-2024 06:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624849#Comment_121624849

The sanction here is a scrum, not a penalty. Here's a video of it happening in a ProD2 match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxW2xyMVJTY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624971#Comment_121624971

The story I've heard is that ever since Italy ended up down to 13 because of a red card and an injury to a hooker, Ireland have been listing their front rows as being able to play all possible positions they're in any way capable of playing, just in case.

Quin_Dub · 17-01-2024 07:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121630637#Comment_121630637

I think all countries are doing it - The Italy shambles was a wake-up call to everyone to make sure you have your props "cross trained" as it were and much more importantly , listed on the team sheet as such.

One the day, one of the Italian Props would have been absolutely fine moving in to Hooker for contested scrums , but because they weren't listed as such on the team sheet they were not allowed.

I remember a game a good few years back where Steve Thompson , the world cup winning England hooker was playing in the backrow in a club game and the hookers got injured and the scrums went uncontested even though Thompson was there, because he was not marked on the team sheet as a hooker so he was not allowed step in.

Rugby 101 - Know your rucks from your mauls!

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