Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

Cabaal · 15-02-2023 07:54AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242317#Comment_120242317

Communion/Confirmation crowd are very much bouncy castle catholics, people mindless going through the motions that call themselves catholic but don't believe any core catholic beliefs. Mind you, I recon if you asked a majority of people that actually do go to mass if they actually believed in transubstantiation most would not.

ohnonotgmail · 15-02-2023 10:20AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242433#Comment_120242433

believe it? most dont even understand it.

end of the road · 15-02-2023 02:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242433#Comment_120242433

i agree.

it's annoying as it keeps the CC some bit relevant in ireland unfortunately.

Loafing Oaf · 04-03-2023 08:15PM

Senator Annie Hoey outlines the legislative changes Labour wants to see flowing from the Abortion Review

https://labour.ie/news/2023/02/16/almost-five-years-on-from-repeal-and-still-waiting-for-abortion-review/

Crucially, we must see the three-day waiting period repealed. It disproportionately affects abortion access for those who live outside of urban areas, in places where there are limited or no abortion providers, and who are financially or socially vulnerable.

“The 12-week limit must also be extended and this must be coupled with an amended definition of a condition likely to lead to the death of a foetus. This provision is unduly restrictive and imposes an arbitrary time period upon doctors’ capacity to diagnose fatal foetal conditions.

I wonder could we see the government running with something along these lines? Be willing to bet the waiting period is a gonner anyway. Not sure about the gestational limit but I'd say there's likely to a broadening of the definition foetal abnormality too...

Hotblack Desiato · 05-03-2023 02:51AM

There's no justification for the waiting period and the effects of it are as they say above, affecting those who have the greatest difficulty in accessing legal abortion in the first place.

Instead of arbitrary legislative limits we could regard it as a matter of medical ethics.

Igotadose · 05-03-2023 09:28AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120315410#Comment_120315410

Has this government met any of their post-referendum/post-initial-implementation milestones? The review is way behind schedule, and the Dail would probably rather take up anything else besides abortion regulation. They appear to only be interested in glamorous crises like Ukraine refugees. Oh, and upping pensions/dole/etc. But...no addressing garda recruitment, no expansion of abortion availability in hospitals, little or nothing on housing, ....

Hotblack Desiato · 05-03-2023 01:21PM

They are recruiting obstetricians where provision of abortion services is explicitly part of the role

Loafing Oaf · 05-03-2023 01:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120315410#Comment_120315410

Instead of arbitrary legislative limits we could regard it as a matter of medical ethics.

I'd be very surprised if they went for total decriminalisation. The 12-week thing seems pretty standard across Europe, even in 'liberal' countries like Norway and Switzerland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Europe#:~:text=After%2014%20weeks%2C%20an%20IMG,born%20with%20serious%2C%20incurable%20disease.

The issues with the foetus that justify later-term abortions in other countries include things like "probable serious mental or physical disability of the child" and "a large probability that the child would be born with serious, incurable disease" so that's where I think we might see the major liberalisation of Irish law.

Hotblack Desiato · 05-03-2023 04:15PM

TBH even getting that would be difficult. We actually have people who lobby for more Downs syndrome babies to be born... (to other people, of course)

Loafing Oaf · 05-03-2023 09:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316679#Comment_120316679

They are very much on the margins now. With former anti-repeal FF TDs now expressing openness to further liberalisation the door is open for the government to go as far as it wants IMO.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-40959338.html

IMO the politically smart thing for the government to do is match (more or less) what the centre left opposition is proposing, or whatb the Greens would do if they had a free hand. That effectively shoots their fox and neutralises the issue going forward. Of course they would still be radical activist types pushing for 'full decriminalisation' but they wouldn't vote for FF or FG in a fit anyway....

aloyisious · 04-04-2023 09:15AM

Mindful of the events planned for Dublin by the anti-abortion rights campaign this year. I reckon this, from an article in todays Irish Indo, will be used by the anti-abortion rights campaign soon where it come to the relaxation or scrapping of the three [3] day waiting period currently required by law here....

The State is being sued over two cases of alleged misdiagnosis of fatal foetal abnormalities which resulted in abortions, it was confirmed yesterday,

The cases have been lodged with the State Claims Agency.

There have also been 133 alleged adverse incidence reported since January 1, 2018 to February 28 this year relating to termination of pregnancy.

The figures were provided in a parliamentary response to Aontú TD Peadar Tóibín.

A previous case arising out of a misdiagnosis at the National Maternity Hospital was settled in the High Court in June 2021.

It comes as a review of Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018 has been completed and is being examined by the Department of Health.

It is expected to recommend that the mandatory three-day waiting period for women having a medical abortion be relaxed.

Meanwhile, in a series of parliamentary responses, Health Minister Stephen Donnelly said a review is also under way to decide if remote consultation for women seeking a medical abortion with their doctor, introduced during the pandemic, should become permanent.

He said that in April 2020 remote consultation, instead of face-to-face consultation, was introduced in early pregnancy.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-04-2023 11:03PM

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2023/04/03/abortion-review-researcher-fears-termination-service-could-collapse/

Speaking about her research into the system, Dr Duffy said: “There are parts where I have real concerns that the service could collapse because it is just not sustainable in its current form. It’s a consultant-led service and there aren’t very many consultants.”

Asked for her assessment of the current provision of abortion services based on her research to date, she said: “It is better than before the referendum but it is a postcode lottery. It can fall down in so many areas. It is inequitable.”

In terms of conscientious objection, she said there was regulation and guidance but their research had uncovered evidence of conscientious objection being interpreted in various ways that was not consistent with these regulations.

“Where someone breaches their obligations in a hospital, it is almost impossible to challenge them. If you take someone off the ward for unprofessional conduct for example, there may be no one there to fill their post,” she said. “There is a lack of consistent management of conscientious objection.”

Dr Duffy said the availability of facilities and staff were major issues and there were instances of people being sent back from operating theatres or “timing out” of abortion access because of this. Details of these instances have been included in her research.

She said there was “outright confusion” around how many GPs actually provided abortion services. She also highlighted issues with staff being given adequate time and the size of the workforce.

“When researchers, including myself, have asked, who handles calls for referring patients from the community? They might be for scans or complex needs, it could be one person on a part time post who was taking the mobile home at weekends or on holidays. But what if they got sick? There is no consideration of how to have an excellent service.”

She added that there were issues with abortion referrals under section 9 of the Act, which allows termination of pregnancy to be carried out if there is a risk to the life of the woman or a risk of serious harm.

“There is very limited guidance and no stable pathway for mental health applications,” she said. “There is no consideration on how to manage multidisciplinary teams.”

In places like Kilkenny it just takes a couple of fundie catholic or muslim consultants to prevent abortion services from happening...

Hotblack Desiato · 20-04-2023 01:04PM

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/oireachtas/2023/04/20/absence-of-abortion-services-in-eight-maternity-hospitals-totally-and-utterly-unacceptable/

It is “totally and utterly unacceptable” that just 11 maternity hospitals out of 19 are currently providing abortion services, the Minister for Health Stephen Donnelly has said.

Mr Donnelly said he is working closely with the HSE to bring that figure to 17 hospitals this year and to 19 early next year.

The Minister said he has examined a review into the State’s abortion laws in detail and would bring it to Government “very shortly”. He said the report by barrister Marie O’Shea would be then published.

This situation should not have been allowed to go on anything like this long.

Either do your job or f**k off and make way for someone who will. Yes your job description has changed slightly. Deal with it or walk, you are far from alone there.

In reality these creeping-Jesus (or creeping-Mohammed?) consultants are stopping others from doing aspects of their jobs they are perfectly willing and able to do - and failing their patients.

Mr Donnelly also said there was now more than 400 GPs around the country providing services.

“It’s gone up a lot, it’s gone up by half in recent times,” he said. “But we want to make sure that there is as much access as possible as well. Regardless of anything in the report, that’s where a lot of my focus is this year.”

Reassurance that if nutters show up at your surgery the Gardai can move on or arrest them would help a lot there - so where is the safe zones legislation?

FFS even librarians are getting hassled by internet-radicalised far right brainless nutcases these days.

aloyisious · 21-04-2023 11:00AM

The Examiner and The Journal.ie have articles on the review report and Donnolly will bring it to cabinet on Tuesday and then on to the Oireachtas Health Committee after that. It seems the review has advised, amongst other changes, that the obligatory 3-day wait period will be optional for decision by the pregnant woman concerned alone.

Deletion of criminal element from the present legislation where doctors are concerned is also advised in the review, hopefully that deletion would also apply to anyone else affected under the present legislation. That should cripple anyone applying pressure quoting the present criminal charge aspect of the legislation to stop provision of abortion services by those who want to provide it.

If protestors [including medical practitioners] want to object, they should be limited to where they can voice their opposition [in terms of volume, distance and method] with preferential protection from protests and protestors being provided by law to clinics, GP services, hospitals and any other establishments which can provide lawful abortion services and information.

Loafing Oaf · 21-04-2023 11:50PM

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/taoiseach-leo-varadkar-expresses-reluctance-29777495

We've seen Leo pull this move several times though: make conservative-sounding noises but then move full-steam ahead in the liberal direction. I suspect 'major' is doing a lot of work in that statement: he'll eventually come out for the abolition of the waiting period period (and possibly further liberalisation) and claim he did not regard these as 'major' changes to the legislation...

Hotblack Desiato · 22-04-2023 06:34PM

https://www.irishexaminer.com/world/arid-41122381.html

The lower court decision was complete and utter BS, not even Trump's packed court could stand over it.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-04-2023 06:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506218#Comment_120506218

Leo knows well that trying to appease 33.6% of the electorate (many of whom were even opposed to the X case, so won't be appeased by any change which could possibly pass the Dail) is a losing strategy so why he feels the need to make these sort of noises every now and again is a bit of a mystery. It's pretty clear the mandatory 3 day wait will go but I'm not expecting any move on the 12 week limit, especially as this would necessitate surgical abortions and many hospitals which should be on board still are not.

aloyisious · 22-04-2023 07:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506218#Comment_120506218

Making the obligatory noises to those who don't like having their traditional "liberties" to keep others restricted while knowing he can't give way to their desires as his Govt partners would be upset. Ronan Mullen and Prof Patricia Casey are still out and about. Leo would have some regard for SF's appreciation of southern voter niceties as well. He knows those FG traditional restrictive liberties would probably extend to the rights so recently given to him and his husband as well.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-04-2023 08:34PM

I think even the traditional FG voter base has moved on quite a while ago now. The backwoodsmen vote FF or (a tiny few) Aontu.

Loafing Oaf · 23-04-2023 10:55AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120508667#Comment_120508667

I think it makes good political sense: Leo knows FG has most right-wing (in every sense) voters in the bag because they have nowhere else to go but also there's nothing to be gained by exhibiting the contempt with which he probably regards them. So we get this kind of public agonising

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30806240.html

Although conservatives with an ounce of political nous must surely be able to see through the act at this stage...

Igotadose · 23-04-2023 12:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120510408#Comment_120510408

Hey, it passed with Leo as Taoiseach, whatever the rags thought. He endorsed it. FF did not. Leo's always going to have a big plus in my book because of it - would it have passed with the likes of Micheál Martin as Taoiseach? Or Enda? Remember Leo's training is as a surgeon, Doctors know what failed abortions look like and what forced birthing where the Mothers or the fetuses lives are at risk looks like.

Hotblack Desiato · 23-04-2023 12:20PM

Pretty much Leo's first utterance as Taoiseach was that we would have a referendum to repeal the 8th within a year. Most other politicians were doing their level best to avoid this issue but it was a boil that needed lancing.

It casts a very dark shadow on Garret Fitzgerald's political career that he allowed the 8th referendum to happen and under farcical circumstances. He very briefly skipped over the issue in his autobiography... very reminiscent of Brexit when a tiny bunch of true-believer lunatics somehow wrestle control of the political agenda and anyone who disagrees with them is vilified from a height.

Igotadose · 23-04-2023 12:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120510627#Comment_120510627

Yep. And sure, there's plenty to complain about with Leo (well, with any Taoiseach, really, just like any POTUS or UK PM.) But not abortion. He got that right.

Feets · 26-04-2023 12:08PM

Is anyone else surprised that abortion now seems to be so widespread...about 6 to 8k a year here....wasn't the vote for only specific situations that they could be carried out? I feel it is wild that the media don't pick up on it.

Igotadose · 26-04-2023 12:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522627#Comment_120522627

It's not widespread. In fact, where abortion is more or less legal, the abortion rate is less than where it isn't: https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-worldwide

Smee_Again · 26-04-2023 12:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522627#Comment_120522627

No, it was to allow the government to legislate on the matter.

ohnonotgmail · 26-04-2023 12:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522627#Comment_120522627

that was the rate before it was legal. women just travelled to the UK instead or ordered abortion pills over the web. as predicted the rate hasn't changed since it became legal. what has changed is that the uncertainty and some of the stigma has been removed and women are now able to obtain them with less risk.

wench · 26-04-2023 12:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522627#Comment_120522627

There are over a million women of childbearing age in the country. 500 a month (0.05%) needing an abortion doesn't seem excessive.

Loafing Oaf · 26-04-2023 04:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522627#Comment_120522627

vote for only specific situations that they could be carried out?

It was on the basis that the government would legislate for abortion 'on request' up to the 12th week of pregnancy. If an individual yes voter wasn't aware of that or didn't understand it, well, that's their tough...

aloyisious · 01-05-2023 12:11AM

David Quinn's opinion piece in todays Sunday Indo is about the referendum and the quote he's attributed to Minister Donnelly of 8,500 abortions a year since the referendum. He seems to think that an unknown number of those who voted yes to delete the 8th did so thinking that it would be only hard cases which would be allowed have abortions, or that is the impression he is trying to persuade readers of his opinion-piece to believe, that those unknown number of voters did not understand that the deletion would allow Irish women and girls have abortions when needed and chosen after the women concerned fulfilled the legal requirement of the 3-day obligatory waiting period to consider their options again.

David seems to believe the review is actively promoting for the deletion of the same 3-day waiting period. He is also promoting the line that the review is attacking the conscientious objection rights of pro-life medical persons not to get involved in abortions. Mr Quinn seems to believe that the conscientious objectors will not be allowed work in any hospitals where abortions services are amongst the medical services being lawfully provided to the Irish women and girls who need that service and the ancillary services. In his opinion-piece, he also claims that Leo Varadkar promised that abortions would be "rare" and that the voters probably believed him [Leo].

Curiously enough, the figure of 8,500 abortions used by David Quinn is the same figure being quoted in a facebook advert by an anti-abortion group, which is sub-quoting another group. The facebook ad does not include mention of, or reference to, David Quinn as being part of or supportive of its aims and intents to prevent abortion services being provided to Irish women and girls.

Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

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