Air Accident / Incident thread

joujoujou · 15-01-2023 9:05am

Latest update: 40 bodies recovered so far. Some sources say approx 15 foreign passengers were onboard, including one Irish.

knucklehead6 · 15-01-2023 10:25am

Apparently this is a video of its last moments

https://www.newstalk.com/news/plane-crash-in-nepal-carrying-irish-passenger-1422064?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR25YGI0XXQfs4o1aAGzD-KyrQv2qcAplbJkUBaGmLp0AT4T0_ykTIjob5Y#Echobox=1673774089

joujoujou · 15-01-2023 11:33am

64 bodies recovered. It is very unlikely there are any survivors, I'm afraid.

EchoIndia · 15-01-2023 1:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120110482#Comment_120110482

It was actually on approach to Pokhara:

"The plane took off at 10:30am on Sunday morning and crashed on the banks of the Seti Gandaki river just 10 to 20 seconds before it was due to land at the newly opened Pokhara international airport."

joujoujou · 15-01-2023 2:14pm

First reports said "shortly after take off". It was, however 20-ish minutes flight, hence misunderstanding, I'd say.

Anyway, 64 bodies recovered so far.

Edit: looks like that was 9N-ANC:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/yt691#2edb480c

Larbre34 · 15-01-2023 4:45pm

Looks from the video that the port engine was idling and the prop was at best auto-rotating in the headwind. But whether it was an engine or control surface issue, it appears a catastrophic asymmetrical imbalance flipped the aircraft at an unrecoverable altitude.

Astral Nav · 15-01-2023 5:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120111875#Comment_120111875

Which was most likely a stall. Numerous comments on other sites have pointed to the apparently high angle of attack. The airport is only open two weeks and directly on line with the old one.

Furthermore the video distinctly shows the nose being pitched up a fraction of a second before the stall and consequent roll. No big questions as to how it crashed, the question is why did it get into this situation.

15-01-2023 6:03pm

It seems flaps were in full landing configuration, if this video clip is valid (video horrible, except it demonstrates that passengers had almost zero awareness they were crashing)

15-01-2023 6:13pm

Old airport has runway running across a valley of steep mountains and requires a banking departure/approach. I flew out of the old airport, and the moment the aircraft becomes airborne a left bank commences. My purple line above demonstrates curving approach from north/departure from south. The brand new airport has runway in centre of valley and in an axis with it. I put in a red X above where the aircraft crashed into the ravine, which incidentally is a tourist attraction.

It has been said on forums that the Captain had 25 years experience and was teaching the newbie first officer with only 100 hours experience. That latter had been widowed 15 years previously when her husband, also a pilot, was killed in an air crash in Nepal. It has been speculated they erroneously (out of habit?) making the familiar & trickier approach to the old airport, going against ATC instructions to approach the new airport runway from opposite direction than they ended up in,

15-01-2023 6:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120111875#Comment_120111875

According to pilots’ reports the ATRs have very good single engine handling.

But there was the case of the fatal TransAsia ATR crash in Taiwan when the aircraft suffered an auto feather which caught pilots off guard.

https://flightsafety.org/asw-article/spurious-autofeather/

15-01-2023 6:49pm

This is a clip from a video I took taking off in an ATR72 from old Pokhara, running lying across and near end of valley. The purple approximates the turn of the aircraft which commenced very shortly after rotation. The red arrow marks the ravine where the Yeti ATR72 crashed. A relatively short distance to the right of the red arrow is where the new airport runway is located, approx perpendicular to the old one and in line with the valley.

EchoIndia · 15-01-2023 8:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120111875#Comment_120111875

Fair play to you for telling that from that very poor quality video. 😐️

Blancolirio (Juan Browne), a very experienced commercial, ex-military and private pilot, provides an initial assessment here:

https://youtu.be/OnuVPUsz9VE

HTCOne · 15-01-2023 10:56pm

Close call at Kennedy the other night.

https://avherald.com/h?article=503c9620&opt=0

15-01-2023 10:59pm

https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/nepal-plane-crash-co-pilot-anju-slated-to-become-pilot-2321869-2023-01-15

Apparently Nepalese Co-pilot was not a newbie, but her 100 hours specific training was to qualify as a Captain. After landing the aircraft she would have received her certification.

15-01-2023 11:38pm

From the video screenshots and observations of those on PPRUNE I deduce this is the approx path the aircraft was taking, the orange X marking the spot where it crashed into the ravine. It didn’t seem off course for this approach. One has to remember a curvaceous approach is necessary owing to the rings of mountains around this basin. This approach path would therefore probably be the correct one to take to the intended runway, but the aircraft became too low and too slow over Pokhara and stalled.

Why it became slow and low is the is the question. I’m hazarding a guess here, but they were not familiar with brand new approach, which I think is a visual one sided by VOR. I suspect it may have been a case of both sets of eyes watching approach runway and failing to observe airspeed and altitude. But the aircraft has good audio warning systems, a distinctive alarm when approaching stall speed, and “too low pull up” warnings. I’m wondering did the “too low, pull up” start sounding, followed by pull-up manoeuvre which induced the high aoa. The stall alarm would have started sounding in short order, simultaneously then with “too low, pull up” resounding. All whilst they were busy trying to visually keep runway in sight and avoid the mountainous terrain. A crm issue, most certainly.

16-01-2023 12:13am

Zoomed out, this would be the approx intended approach to the runway.

sparrowcar · 16-01-2023 2:49pm

I genuinely can't believe what I just heard on the radio news. A quick segment on the crash and they named the Irish person that died. They then cut to a sound bite of someone from the Air Corps and he said... and I sh!t you not...

"I thought it was weather related but I believe that's not the case now, I believe this happened very close to the airport so the pilots should have been able to see the airport"

My God... there was never any mention of weather and the videos circulating within minutes showed that. Why comment on something you haven't a breeze about.

Storm 10 · 16-01-2023 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120115571#Comment_120115571

Ex Air Corps

knucklehead6 · 16-01-2023 5:27pm

From latest reports, the Irish person isn’t Irish

EchoIndia · 16-01-2023 9:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120115571#Comment_120115571

I didn't hear the clip (on what radio station?) but it is more than likely that a short excerpt of a longer interview was carried. If the interviewee is the person I am thinking of, he is a sound and well-informed contributor on aviation matters. Most Irish media reporting on this accident has been pretty poor, with little informed commentary by anyone with a professional knowledge of aviation.

16-01-2023 11:05pm

Nepal air crash: Indian passenger's video caught plane's last moments https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-64287331

Simon Hrádečky said on his AvHerald that two fake videos allegedly from inside the aircraft were circulating but it seems that one is in fact genuine.

sparrowcar · 17-01-2023 12:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120117412#Comment_120117412

CH 80's.. it replaced Christmas FM. Sounds like they use a generic radio news package.

Totally off subject but banging 80's music all day 😃

Quags · 17-01-2023 10:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120117857#Comment_120117857

Those last few seconds are unimageable I imagine

thecretinhop · 17-01-2023 11:52am

https://youtu.be/5AbpxqtXcPk

Not sure that's up near miss on Friday it's insane

cosanostra · 17-01-2023 2:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120119166#Comment_120119166

I know this is pilot deviation but it seems like a pretty poor layout, also the instructions given to Delta1943 to "cancel takeoff clearance" just doesn't seem like the right language id imagine "Delta 1943 STOP STOP STOP" would be more appropriate in this circumstance its not ambiguous and you know right away what you must do with out any need for thought.

Hotblack Desiato · 17-01-2023 4:04pm

Both of those Nepal videos look fake and show nothing useful anyway.

AnRothar · 17-01-2023 4:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120119947#Comment_120119947

From DOC4444

... to cancel a take-off clearance before aircraft has commenced take-off roll

ATC) HOLD POSITION, CANCEL TAKE-OFF I SAY AGAIN CANCEL TAKE-OFF (reasons);

Aircraft) HOLDING;

to cancel a take-off clearance before aircraft has commenced take-off roll

ATC) STOP IMMEDIATELY [(repeat aircraft call sign) STOP IMMEDIATELY];

Aircraft) STOPPING;

17-01-2023 5:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120119947#Comment_120119947

Yes, lack of urgency. I was once landing a light aircraft at Weston when a guy, whose radio had failed, was being escorted to its base at Dublin Airport by a pilot with a radio. I had announced all my positions, my turn to base my turn to final. I saw them below approaching the runway and presumed they would hold short. I was getting a bit nervous looking at them, the pilot with radio making inadequate announcements, so I said firmly I was on short final. Next second the leading pilot moves onto the runway with the following pilot immediately behind and they commence a roll. I shouted ROLLING AIRCRAFT ABORT ABORT ABORT! I went around to the left, but saw they had stopped.

faoiarvok · 24-01-2023 11:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120568#Comment_120120568

Not commenting on the merits, but US ATC is governed by FAA procedure JO 7110.65.

3-9-11 in that doc says:

PHRASEOLOGY−

CANCEL TAKEOFF CLEARANCE (reason).

LiamaDelta · 24-01-2023 12:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120149895#Comment_120149895

not sure if its your copy paste or if it's from the actual document but both of those scenarios are the same 'to cancel a take-off clearance before aircraft has commenced take-off roll'

faoiarvok · 29-01-2023 7:49pm

Think you’ve replied to the wrong person?

JohnC. · 05-02-2023 11:33am

Bloody hell, this is a bit close

https://twitter.com/rawsalerts/status/1622060444985720835

JohnC. · 05-02-2023 2:00pm

Looks like both planes were fine to be cleared at the points they were, but for whatever reason Southwest took ages to actually start moving so FedEx caught up.

HTCOne · 05-02-2023 7:05pm

I dunno, clearing SWA onto the runway in LVPs with FDX at 3nm….squeeky bum time.

Edit: I just read elsewhere there’s no surface movement RADAR/ground surveillance in AUS so definitely very flipping risky behaviour by TWR.

EchoIndia · 09-02-2023 2:13pm

Not a lot of information provided here but if the AAIB are involved there must be something of substance to look into.

https://www.thejournal.ie/air-accident-investigation-sligo-helicopter-emergency-landing-derry-5991043-Feb2023/

HTCOne · 09-02-2023 10:39pm

Ugly one here....

https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/qatar-airways-flight-787-loses-height-after-take-off/

Shedite27 · 10-02-2023 10:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221892#Comment_120221892

Bit strange that it continued to Copenhagen no?

If it was Pilot error - you'd want that pilot checked out

If it was mechanical - you'd want that plane checked out

Maybe a massive gust of wind? Probably the only thing you'd let it continue for

Hotblack Desiato · 10-02-2023 12:06pm

http://avherald.com/h?article=504d75c7&opt=0

According to information The Aviation Herald received on Feb 7th 2023 the first officer was pilot flying. At about 1600 feet the aircraft was cleared direct to the next waypoint and the first officer attempted to turn towards that waypoint flying manually and without flight director indications (the captain was slow to put the Direct into the FMS) but lost situational awareness sending the aircraft into a descent that reached 3000 fpm sink rate and exceeded the flap speed limits until the captain took control of the aircraft and recovered about 800 feet above water. The occurrence was not reported to the authorities and only came to light later.

General Disarray · 15-02-2023 1:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120223066#Comment_120223066

This screams classic somatogravic illusion to me.

At night, no visual clues, over the sea, in an accelerating climbing turn, pure textbook conditions.

POBox19 · 15-02-2023 1:14pm

Something similar here: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64645457

US air safety officials say they will investigate why a Boeing 777 jet unexpectedly lost altitude and nearly plunged into the Pacific Ocean.

United Airlines flight 1722 had left Maui on 18 December and was climbing when it suddenly plummeted 1,400ft (425m), reports say.

It stabilised at just 775ft in altitude and went on to land safely in San Francisco 27 minutes early.

EchoIndia · 15-02-2023 4:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120110482#Comment_120110482

Nepal ATR-72 preliminary report.

https://www.tourism.gov.np//files/pu..._files/343.pdf

Astral Nav · 15-02-2023 10:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244500#Comment_120244500

It appears that the training Capt feathered both engines when he was asked to set landing flap. Downright strange. Neither pilot noticed.

18-02-2023 3:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246154#Comment_120246154

PF was very busy looking at runway she was turning towards and expected PM to correct engine thrust situation as best he could do “instantly”. If both engines were gone at that point they really had nowhere to go, a crash was inevitable.

The flap and engine condition levers are right beside each other. The PM’s left hand would have reached to operate these, but I imagine he too was a bit hyper-focussed on watching out the window to check he student was aiming correctly. The flap lever is white and you simply pull back to your chosen setting, the condition levers are black and have longer travel, also they must be pulled up past the stop to activate, so as to lessen the likelihood of cutting the fuel unintentionally in flight. However, PM managed to achieve this, so his mind must have been totally off the task, his muscle memory so y telling him “this lever needs pulling up”.

She brought his attention to no thrust several times in succession, it seems he “froze”. Either crew was extremely fatigued or he coincidentally suffered from a medical event as happened with the Staines Trident tragedy.

John.G · 18-02-2023 6:09pm

ATR Controls Normal.jpg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120257353#Comment_120257353

I'd say this wasn't the first time that the props were feathered but the mistake was spotted in time, I'm quite surprised that there isn't a audible warning that they have been feathered, looking at the position of those levers, especially with flaps 15 selected and when flaps 30 are called for then IMO its almost inevitible that someone will, under the "right" conditions, pull the wrong lever(s).

The Staines accident occured despite having three pilots, a P1 and a P2 plus additionally, a monitoring pilot, a P3 sitting back between them. After this accident a speed baulk was installed to prevent retraction of the droop lever until the speed was above the stall speed. BEA said that the likely hood of someone retracting the droops before the stall speed was exceeded was very small because the droop lever only became unguarded when the flap lever was moved, it then only took something like 10 secs for the speed to build up to exceed the stall limit.

EchoIndia · 09-03-2023 5:41pm

Follow-up to a tragic ground incident at Dublin a few years ago:

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/03/09/swissport-ireland-fined-250000-over-death-of-employee-in-dublin-airport-fall/

Strumms · 15-03-2023 12:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120336146#Comment_120336146

“HSA inspector Mairead Wall said Mr Gracey had been carrying out two roles on the day, of team leader and trainer”

this industry, that job, both responsibilities should never have been put onto poor Richard… or anyone, you cannot do both…. You are either carrying out training OR working…

billie1b · 15-03-2023 7:00pm

I won't mention names of companies but one of the largest, if not the largest airline operating in Dublin has this as unofficial standard practice. It's been like that years and has never changed, the only thing that has changed is less people working on the crews adding more stress to overly stretched people already.

RIP Richie

Irish Steve · 16-03-2023 12:52am

The company name has changed, back in 1996 it was servisair, and they had a fatal accident with another cargo aircraft, and as the previous poster commented, things were bad then, and it seems that they've not improved much, and unfortunately, a combination of weak mangement and militant and over strong unions made the situation worse, there were certain people who could not be touched, even if they were not following procedures, and there were times when it did indeed make a difficult and potentially dangerous job even harder to do properly. At least this case has resulted in court action, maybe that will have got the attention of the people that can make changes, I'd like to hope that a tragic death will mean real change at last.

RIP Richie.

POBox19 · 16-03-2023 8:55am

Not an accident, but possibly one waiting to happen. Two SpiceJet pilots grounded for coffee at 37,000’.

https://twitter.com/Mohan_Rngnathan/status/1635560522161737729?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1635560522161737729%7Ctwgr%5E7befef1377870a82bece3af171f4b66bad51752a%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fworld-asia-india-64948054

smurfjed · 20-03-2023 5:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120364780#Comment_120364780

Why do people feel the need to post everything online.

Air Accident / Incident thread

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