Air Accident / Incident thread

Topgear on Dave

Leicester City football club owners helicopter crashes very shortly after takeoff from their ground.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-46006470

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/46006786

Mebuntu

Probably the most extraordinary report ever on the Aviation Herald. A (very) long read.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4b6eb830/0006&opt=0

faoiarvok

Mebuntu wrote: »

Probably the most extraordinary report ever on the Aviation Herald. A (very) long read.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4b6eb830/0006&opt=0

Really ambitious and interesting reporting.

A couple of paragraphs discussing the scientific literature could use editing for grammar as some of the meaning is lost/ambiguous.

Tenger

Mebuntu wrote: »

Probably the most extraordinary report ever on the Aviation Herald. A (very) long read.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4b6eb830/0006&opt=0

Thats a horrible tale of the dangers of fumes. That poor man.

B00056718

https://youtu.be/kIc8Rr-cKd8

Air Astana over Portugal. I was sweating just listening to the Comms. Looks like they were at first confused weather the instruments failed or the controls.

Hotblack Desiato

Thread here.

There's a write up on it up on AVHerald now.

Stovepipe

The guy kept asking about headings to the sea; it sounded like he was at the end of his tether. seriously lucky to have made it back.

B00056718

vargoo wrote: »

Got half way and gave up...and that was shortened apparently, over and over asking the same questions........

More like distressed and confused. You could hear in his voice he was terrified.

rio1

Communication from ATC suboptimal. They could have let him know he was going around in circles much sooner.

Oasis1974

Not an incident or anything just found it amusing reminded me of driving your car and taking your hands off the wheel for a sec or dropping something and you car drifts lol.

Stovepipe

rio1 wrote: »

Communication from ATC suboptimal. They could have let him know he was going around in circles much sooner.

I'd say he knew full well; his standby compass, which would not have been affected, would have been constantly turning and any glimpse he got of the terrain would have confirmed it, as well as any glimpse of the sun.

regards
Stovepipe

rio1

Stovepipe wrote: »

I'd say he knew full well; his standby compass, which would not have been affected, would have been constantly turning and any glimpse he got of the terrain would have confirmed it, as well as any glimpse of the sun.

regards
Stovepipe

Funny how he kept asking if a heading would lead him to the sea, getting details and then doing the opposite. Just confused I suppose. Thankfully all ended ok.

Stovepipe

It reads to me as if he has reached his limit of tasks that he can process and has become overloaded and essentially defers to the committee that it trying to get the back onto the ground. It means that even simple tasks can become incredibly difficult, processing third-party input becomes difficult and the decision making process starts to break down so the brain reverts to simple, safe stuff until the human can seperate out the tasks and deal with them.

plodder

21 July 2017: Boeing 737-800 took off from Belfast International Airport (BFS)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-21/boeing-737-narrowly-avoided-disaster-amid-crew-temperature-error

A Boeing Co. 737 jet struck a light almost 100 feet beyond the end of a runway and just 14 inches high after taking off with insufficient power when its pilots entered the incorrect air-temperature into a computer, according to an air accident bulletin.

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aircraft-accident-report-aar-2-2018-c-fwgh-21july-2017

Beersmith

plodder wrote: »

21 July 2017: Boeing 737-800 took off from Belfast International Airport (BFS)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-21/boeing-737-narrowly-avoided-disaster-amid-crew-temperature-error




https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aircraft-accident-report-aar-2-2018-c-fwgh-21july-2017

Would that not have been aborted when they didn't reach V1 in time?

Dardania

Beersmith wrote: »

Would that not have been aborted when they didn't reach V1 in time?

They probably had faith they would reach V1. Or rather, they had no indication they shouldn't reach V1, so they weren't aware that they were running out of runway

smurfjed

Would that not have been aborted when they didn't reach V1 in time?

Very few, if any civilian aircraft give you a distance to V1 and thanks to technology that allows derated and reduced thrust, it can be kinda difficult to get a feel for where it will happen. I am surprised that the FMS allowed such an error, my basic FMS gives you an error if the entered outside air temperature is more than 2 degrees different to the sensed OAT.

Stovepipe

the FMS probably didnt notice that the Assumed temperature entered was a very negative number.

Beersmith

Dardania wrote: »

They probably had faith they would reach V1. Or rather, they had no indication they shouldn't reach V1, so they weren't aware that they were running out of runway

But would the pilot not notice running out of runway and seeing V1 hadn't been reached yet.

1123heavy

Mebuntu wrote: »

Probably the most extraordinary report ever on the Aviation Herald. A (very) long read.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4b6eb830/0006&opt=0

I am very unsatisfied with how this whole thing gets swept under the carpet time and time again by those of authority.

How many deaths will it take? Is it due to a lack of public interest? ... will it take a hull loss for anything to be done about it?

plodder

Beersmith wrote: »

But would the pilot not notice running out of runway and seeing V1 hadn't been reached yet.

One of the oddest things (to a non pilot) in the report is this:

Failure to apply more thrust after recognising the problem

With hindsight, it would seem strange that neither pilot attempted to increase
the thrust to improve the performance of the aircraft. The report detailed why
this action might not have been the natural reaction and why many crews would
probably have reacted in the same way.

Pilots rarely manipulate the thrust on takeoff due to the use of autothrust. They
also remove their hands from the thrust levers at V1.

The use of the autothrust has tended to remove pilots from the action of moving the thrust levers after the start of the takeoff roll, and the action of removing the hand at V1 means pilots have little or no experience of putting their hand back on the thrust levers after that speed. The pilots of C-FWGH would have had no prepared response for this event.

Apparently, they were almost 4km from the airport (and at 800ft aal) before they applied more thrust. A reluctance to interfere with the automation I guess.

cml387

Stovepipe wrote: »

the FMS probably didnt notice that the Assumed temperature entered was a very negative number.

The report does mention that possibly being Canadian they were accustomed to colder temps The report has no answers as to why the incorrect OAT was entered twice

The FMS software apparently had not been upgraded, an newer version would have spotted a disagree between the entered number and the actual temp as measured by an engine probe.

faoiarvok

cml387 wrote: »

The report does mention that possibly being Canadian they were accustomed to colder temps The report has no answers as to why the incorrect OAT was entered twice

The FMS software apparently had not been upgraded, an newer version would have spotted a disagree between the entered number and the actual temp as measured by an engine probe.

Haven’t read the report, but a news article I saw referred to jet lag as a possible factor also. Had the pilots commuted from Canada to operate the flight?

cml387

faoiarvok wrote: »

Haven’t read the report, but a news article I saw referred to jet lag as a possible factor also. Had the pilots commuted from Canada to operate the flight?

Yes, I think there was mention of possible jetlag.

billy few mates

Very similar to the Emirates A340 incident at Melbourne a few years back when one of the pilots accidentally entered the wrong weight into the FMGC and it wasn't picked up by the other CM.
In that case they also didn't notice the sluggish take off roll and badly damaged the aircraft on rotation after using the full length of the runway.
I thought most operators had a procedure where certain entries in the CRU had to be confirmed by both crew members before executing...?

duskyjoe

Stovepipe wrote: »

the FMS probably didnt notice that the Assumed temperature entered was a very negative number.

You mean positive ?

Hotblack Desiato

I read that both of that Emirates crew were fired!

smurfjed

The entered OAT was NEGATIVE, the assumed temperature POSITIVE.

This is another one.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK_Airlines_Flight_1602

Garbage in, garbage out.

Beersmith

So from the details released today it sounds as if that lion air flight crew 'fought' the autopilot that was malfunctioning rather than just switch it off and fly it themselves. Bizzare that this seems to keep happening in these scenarios.

Brennus335

Beersmith wrote: »

So from the details released today it sounds as if that lion air flight crew 'fought' the autopilot that was malfunctioning rather than just switch it off and fly it themselves. Bizzare that this seems to keep happening in these scenarios.

It had nothing to do with the autopilot. Bizarre that people keep making false statements on the back of incorrect assumptions.