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You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the right.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 81,919 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    So does the United States. Under the last Republican administration we banned offshore drilling, sought increasing amounts of offshore drilling (expending more of the emperors fuel), stopped and defunded Yucca Mountain Repository, and waged a culture war against renewable energy sources as 'woke,' and then hailed the 'net export' of oil from the US offshore (expending more of the emperors fuel). All insanity, all bananas. Therefore I'm not sure from what pedestal one could look down their nose at China or its shift to green energy policy and ours. They've made empirically measured strides.

    After literally years, decades even of Republican fearmongering that Iran was the biggest threat in the world etc. and Obama was going to trigger the apocalypse by doing the nuclear deal, though? So how do we have it both ways that they are - so terrifying and menacing that we can't impose a deal on them to not make a nuclear weapons program? While at the same time having *love letters* with the dictatorship of DPRK?

    Sorry, just not buying any of that piss.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,480 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    So only the Republicans painted Iran as an adversary of the United States? Absolute nonsense.

    Love letters to the DPRK? Attempting to open dialogue with North Korea was bad because it was Trump doing it? But Obama doing a deal with Iran was a good thing?

    This is all just tribalistic nonsense.

    Anything someone you don't like does is automatically irredeemably bad as soon as they've done it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 81,919 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    So only the Republicans painted Iran as an adversary of the United States? Absolute nonsense.

    Null, it's absolute nonsense because it's a strawman I never said? lolol

    Can I expect more of this dishonest interchange?

    Love letters to the DPRK?

    To the Dictatorship of DPRK. Yes.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-usa-trump/we-fell-in-love-trump-swoons-over-letters-from-north-koreas-kim-idUSKCN1MA03Q

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/trump-kim-north-korea-nuclear/2020/09/30/2b7305c8-032b-11eb-b7ed-141dd88560ea_story.html

    This is all just tribalistic nonsense.

    Not at all you are making it tribalistic nonsense by inserting nonsense, like strawmans.

    Anything someone you don't like does is automatically irredeemably bad as soon as they've done it.

    I don't even understand the point of this juvenile attempt at character assault. It's certainly not the topic though? Aren't you after saying China is irredeemably bad? I have no idea where I said anyone or thing was irredeemably bad, so, thanks another strawman.

    No staying on topic here? No rebuttal about the drilling bans? Yucca mtn? Nothing?



  • Registered Users Posts: 81,919 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    People really still think the DPRK stands for Democratic? And they think the CCP is 'far left?' How does that work



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,480 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    Odd how people think two communist countries are far left alright, wherever do people get these ideas from?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Odd how you're still bleating on about communism when it neither affects you, or anyone is advocating for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,480 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    Odd you're still ignoring two communist countries and the dangers they pose to the world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    They don't. They could. But they currently don't.

    Why are you more concerned about what might happen than what is happening?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,600 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Standard right wing tactics. Fascism must never be criticised so the thread must be derailed as much as possible.

    North Korea is barely a state and Iran is in turmoil. Neither is a threat to anyone right now. Meanwhile, the right slavishly worship one of the most venal, evil and incompetent US presidents of all time who did his best to enable dictators and autocrats around the world in exploiting their people while undermining NATO.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Trump and the US right wing establishment and media have rowed in completely behind Putin/Russia and also NK but to a lesser extent. And people are on here trying to be adamant that these regimes are still Left Wing in nature.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,480 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    North Koreas commitment to produce more nuclear weapons is a current issue. As is China's continued intent to invade Taiwan.

    Real issues with potentially catastrophic consequences that aren't as big a danger to the world as Brexit or Rust belt evangelicals and poorly organised militias.

    You also assigned Russia to the right in your OP which ignores the tradition of expansionist aggression they're tapping into via their former soviet leadership. If the current Russian administration have real historical links to any extremist beliefs it's on the left of the spectrum where their experience lies but they're lazily labeled as fascists by so many people.

    You shot down the notion that the far right was the problem a few pages back so I'm guessing (as you refused to clarify your opinion) that more moderate western conservatives are the real danger to the world, which is a strange opinion to hold.

    Let's be clear, the far right poses a danger without a doubt, but so does the far left. Nobody benefits from ignoring either the far left or far right. According to you saying that makes me right wing. Weird.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,480 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    Fascism must never be criticised?

    Name any country in the world is there currently a fascist regime operating.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,600 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Exactly. They're pushing an authoritarian agenda to undermine personal liberty and human rights with their media outrights spouting nonsense about green M&Ms and other insipid drivel to keep their base riled up.

    The Trumpsters would have an easier time if they weren't dedicated to defending every single hateful cretin that the modern right has in abundance. If they could pick and choose their battles, they'd be more convincing. For example, Boris Johnson in the UK got fully behind the vaccine whereas Trump propagated anti-vaxx and anti-mask conspiracy theories. Both countries had huge amounts of covid deaths sadly.

    Defending every crank movement means that opinions without evidence are essentially worthless as we saw with the linkdump from Israel yesterday.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,844 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Russia indeed has a fascist regime entirely made up of people of far left background. Which goes to show how little difference there is between far left and far right and how much you should also fear any party or organization leaning too far to the left.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,600 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,844 ✭✭✭Cordell


    I don't know what was the point I helped you prove, but you're welcome!



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,480 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    Russia doesn't meet the criteria of a fascist regime.

    The first touchstone of a fascist regime is a revolution which disposes of the existing system of governance which hasn't happened in Russia.

    Like you said the result of far left and far right ideology tends to be the same but there hasn't been any new fascist regimes so far this century.

    Essentially fascism doesn't exist in the world in any true sense anymore beyond ideation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,844 ✭✭✭Cordell


    The first touchstone of a fascist regime is a revolution which disposes of the existing system of governance which hasn't happened in Russia.

    That might be the case for a country that was a democracy before, but that's not the case with Russia. They just switched from far left to far right in a very short time with no actual regime change, just a few people here and there.

    Essentially fascism doesn't exist in the world in any true sense anymore beyond ideation.

    Yes, just like communism, it doesn't exist in reality. But people trying to push any of these two radical ideologies are equally dangerous.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,600 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Russia is both fascist and very right wing. The pretense otherwise just looks incredibly silly to me.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Essentially fascism doesn't exist in the world in any true sense anymore beyond ideation.

    Nonsense. Demonstrably so.

    Or else you'll have to come up with a definition for Putin's behaviour and ideology making sure to keep in mind why it is so beloved of right wing proponents throughout the world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,844 ✭✭✭Cordell


    I don't know why you keep equating far right with right wing but it's getting tiresome.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,600 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Because the lines between the two are getting more and more blurred. I thought this was obvious. We have a former US president who attempted a fascist coup, various right wing kleptocrats sucking their countries dry in Eastern Europe and a Tory party that has fully embraced ethnic nationalism while banning protests.

    I asked before for the name of a centre-right leader and got nothing.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    I'm pointing it out, others are the ones building ties between the two.

    Specifically Conservatives in the US and the UK (and elsewhere).

    It's clear people don't like being reminded of how intertwined they have become, they should think about that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    Honestly, you're all a bit clownish with the term. I don't know why people feel that there's a great need to use it, as it's one of the most abused labels, with many definitions, meaning that you'll never agree. As you'll pick the one that suits you and they'll pick the one that suits them. Why not just called it right wing authoritarianism? Surely you can agree on that?

    All the same, I'd love to drag Evola back to earth, just to show him all the people calling fascism, which he had a massive hand in shaping, right wing Christianity. Most serious fascists were Neo Pagans, and hated the order of Christianity, and would be disgusted to be bunched with Christians. In Revolt Against the Modern World, Evola spend a massive chunk of it arguing for Paganism and against Christianity, yet somehow now most "fascists" are Christians?

    You don't really care about the true meaning of it though if were honest, you just like using the term as it's trendy, and sings to your audience.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,844 ✭✭✭Cordell



    If leaders and parties went to far to the far right that doesn't change the far right and right wing definitions. The lines are not blurred, the are as clear as they ever were, right wing is still an ideology which have at its core values things like freedom and democracy.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,600 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    By the same logic, I could claim that Communism has never been tried.

    The right exists as it exists in practice, not in theory. Right wing ideology is becoming more and more anti-democratic in some countries, particularly the USA and the UK.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,844 ✭✭✭Cordell


    I could claim that communism have been attempted and it failed with millions of deaths and decades of misery. And that would be a fact.

    I could also claim that proper democratic right wing was the cure for both communism and fascism and the way the world recovered and prospered in the last 100 years and the ideology and system who made it possible to have this conversation today. And that also would be a fact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    Ah yes, telling me to go elsewhere because I tried to define something? How petty.

    But they aren't the same thing, so you're all but admitting that you're using the label out of convenience, with little care for what it actually means. You're just following the mob, and using the language of the mob, because it speaks to them. Like I said, you don't care about the actual meaning one bit.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,600 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    You could but you've not shown any sign of having seriously looked into it. It's just more right=good, left=bad nonsense that falls apart quite quickly.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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