Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all, we have some important news to share. Please follow the link here to find out more!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058419143/important-news/p1?new=1

Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

1155215531555155715581580

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,712 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    He's not an 'anti vaxxer'. Just covid mRNA ones. Do we label people with concerns about opioids 'anti painkillers' (Purdue pharma wish they thought of that that lol) or people who aren't sure about any particular drug, anti drug? It's ridiculous but makes people feel better I suppose



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,101 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    The info is in the links and sourced properly. His views are contradicted by multiple experts and the BHF, it's right there. Individual professionals are not exempt from having quack or fringe views. There's a doctor who thinks there are magnets in vaccines, and another who thinks they are "poison", they might have the ability to bamboozle and convince a lay-person who is already scared of vaccines, but they get shredded by people who know what they are talking about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,669 ✭✭✭walus


    I'll take it that you cannot make your own assessment and thus cannot answer my questions. That is fine with me.

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,932 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    For those persons who refuse to attain some knowledge because it is carried by someone/something they refuse to view, maybe a Twit post would be more to your liking?


    So continue to believe in the misinformation that you so readily accepted from the likes of the oh so truthful BBC or maybe reconsider your views ...

    Of course should there be some who gain from persuading people to a certain view I expect even this from the UK Statistics Regulator will be insufficient.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,101 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Look at the crap he is retweeting, another quack. Even so, perhaps his background in, oh, it's computer science. Amazed the ONS actually replied to this.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,932 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Hahahahahaha

    Typical response when the content cannot be attacked because of its source - attack the messenger!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,669 ✭✭✭walus


    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • Posts: 4,806 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That would be great ass covering, just blame COVID and the cyber attack from a few years back...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,101 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Gript is a far right blog site.

    From the Times article itself:

    "Ireland has seen a huge spike in excess mortality that rivals the peak of the pandemic — yet Covid-19 is no longer the primary cause of death, The Sunday Times can reveal.

    "Post-pandemic pressures on the HSE such as treatment backlogs and a wave of late diagnoses allied to the added pressures on the health system of a lingering “twindemic” of flu and Covid-19 all appear to be taking their toll. The seven-day rolling average of deaths reported on January 9, 2023 was 152 — almost as high as the weekly average of 156 reported on January 29, 2021 — the peak of the disastrous third wave that triggered a six-month nationwide lockdown."


    "Gabriel Scally, a professor of public health at the University of Bristol, said the rising wave of Irish deaths looked “very bad” in comparison with the UK.

    “I am not surprised to see it in the UK but I am surprised to see it in Ireland,” Scally, who oversaw the CervicalCheck inquiry, said. “Whereas there has been a relative disinvestment in healthcare in the UK, Ireland has done relatively well in terms of their overall health performance.” There could be a variety of causes for this post-pandemic wave, he said, adding: “Excess winter deaths do vary depending on the pattern of weather and the pattern of circulating viruses, influenza being one of the most important. “Overcrowding in A&E could be part of it with people waiting for ambulances for hours or receiving ‘corridor care’. Long Covid could also be an influencing factor, having had detrimental effects on people’s cardiovascular and respiratory systems. Covid-19 could still play a role: with low levels of booster uptake and waning immunity there is a risk lower levels of testing for patients dying outside of hospitals, such as the elderly dying in care homes or at home, may mean it’s not being picked up.” The effects of the rising cost of living could also be a factor, he warned. “One of the problems with excess winter deaths is they are very heavily linked to social conditions,” he said. “It could be the fuel crisis, that people are being very limited with their spend on fuel; it may be a housing crisis, with low quality housing. There could be quite a number of reasons but we won’t really know that for some time until we see the cause of death data.” Reacting to the rise in excess deaths, Duncan Smith, the Labour health spokesman, called for the government to take action by reintroducing mandatory mask wearing in a bid to prevent transmission of respiratory conditions. The Dublin Fingal TD said: “The number of excess deaths must be a cause of concern for government considering the triple assault on our health service from Covid, flu and RSV [respiratory syncytial virus] “Last week I called for stronger and clearer public health advice including in the area of face masks. There is a clear lack of public health leadership from the minister and senior health officials.” David Cullinane, Sinn Fein’s health spokesman, urged the government to ensure there were adequate resources allocated to hospitals. The Waterford TD also said the public should listen to public health advice to reduce their risk. “Obviously we have to listen to that advice but also everything must be done to make sure we have the allocation of resources in emergency departments,” he said. “We need preventative measures, public health measures plus everything possible done to support those on the front line in healthcare.” An HSE spokesman yesterday said the Health Protection Surveillance Centre’s most recent data on excess deaths had shown “no indications of excess all-cause deaths occurring in Ireland in the last four weeks”. The spokesman added: “These data are provisional due to the time delay with death registration in Ireland. A country-specific adjustment function was applied to correct for the typical delay in registrations of deaths in Ireland. Nonetheless, estimates of excess mortality for the most recent weeks/months are reported with some uncertainty and should be interpreted with caution.”"

    Similar to what I wrote (and others have pointed out)

    Hospitals had to cancel operations and screenings due to the pandemic, likewise during that period less people obviously went for screenings due to Covid. This was the first winter without masks and distancing, ergo we had high cases of flu, Covid, additional respiratory diseases.


    We do have a decent understanding of why there are more excess deaths, there are numerous factors, as already pointed out. Ageing populations, over-crowded hospitals, reduced healthcare staff, delayed treatments/screenings, Covid and long Covid, summer heatwaves, and so on.


    It's a combination of things.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,101 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    There's no evidence vaccines have anything to do with excess deaths.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,707 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Have you seen the evidence for the fuel crisis or the housing crisis causing a huge spike in excess mortality?

    “It could be the fuel crisis, that people are being very limited with their spend on fuel; it may be a housing crisis, with low quality housing. There could be quite a number of reasons but we won’t really know that for some time until we see the cause of death data.”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,643 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    You link dumped a Youtube video. Nobody has the time to watch all such linked videos and 99 times out of 100 they are garbage or a proper article would be linked.

    Similarly if you rely on the BBC you will have a more reliable guide to the facts. Not infallible but right far far more often than wrong.

    Did you read the rebuttal?

    https://osr.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/correspondence/ed-humpherson-to-norman-fenton-martin-neil-clare-craig-and-scott-mclachlan-ons-deaths-by-vaccination-status-statistics/

    They reject pretty much all the points put to them especially the key point re: underestimating deaths in the unvaccinated.

    They acknowledge gaps in the data as they are only tracking this cohort:

    The publication uses data from the Public Health Data Asset (PHDA), which combines data from the 2011 census and the General Practice Extraction Service (GPES). For an individual to be included in the PHDA, they must have responded to the 2011 census and be presently registered with a GP. Those missing from the PHDA dataset are therefore not missing at random, and they are more likely to fall under one or more of the following categories:

    • Younger in age
    • Born outside of the UK
    • Unvaccinated (as it is more difficult to obtain a COVID-19 vaccination without being registered with a GP)

    Based on this gap they recommend the vaccine surveillance report - that report is clear on the evidence for vaccine safety and effectiveness.

    But what the ONS data does show is that among UK residents registered with a GP and in the 2011 census, all cause mortality was significantly lower for vaccinated v unvaccinated.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,101 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Yes, it's well known that something like an energy crisis can have an impact, the current one is no exception.

    The constant swirl of cold and damp can make for an early grave. More people expire in the winter than in warmer months due to an increase in heart attacks, stroke, respiratory disease (including Covid), flu, falls and hypothermia. The approaching change of season coupled with the prospect of soaring energy costs prompted researchers to warn last week of an impending “public health and humanitarian crisis” as people struggle to heat their homes. Sir Michael Marmot, a health equity researcher at University College London, together with paediatricians Ian Sinha and Alice Lee at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital in Liverpool, wrote in the British Medical Journal that the health consequences will be felt not just by the elderly but also by the young, whose maturing respiratory systems may be impaired for life."




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,669 ✭✭✭walus


    The absence of evidence is not an evidence of absence.

    Have you got evidence that vaccines are not a contributory factor? And I mean a study looking into root causes of those deaths and not yet another link to an article from one of the news outlets from 2 years ago stating that vaccines are safe and effective.

    Post edited by walus on

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,227 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Trying to prove a negative like you are asking is very difficult. For example, you can't prove that there aren't people out there who can turn themselves into a duck. We have no evidence that there are people who can turn themselves into a duck and there have never been any recorded sightings or incidences of people turning themselves into a duck which would indicate that there aren't people who can turn themselves into a duck. So from that we can conclude that it isn't possible however we can't prove it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,643 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    What evidence have you got that they are?

    In the absence of that, you are into "just asking questions" if not scaremongering territory, when it is done without foundation.

    That which is stated without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

    In this case there is evidence to the contrary re: vaccine safety.

    For one thing, there is no correlation between vaccine rates and excess deaths consistent across countries.

    There are multiple layers of monitoring going on. It never stopped.

    Unexplained deaths would require post mortems. No safety signals have been detected that show any links between vaccination and increased excess deaths.

    As proof of the active monitoring - this is a recent safety signal alert however further analysis indicates the risk is either extremely low OR non-existent.

    This is a recent study looking at deaths in Qatar 30 days post vaccination (in 2021 and 2022) and concluded "deaths attributable to SARS-CoV-2 vaccination are extremely rare and lower than the overall crude mortality rate in Qatar."

    Dr Alison Cave, Chief Safety Office for the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA), told Reuters via email: “Following a careful assessment of the available data, we concluded that the evidence does not support an association between the COVID-19 vaccines and an increased risk of cardiac related death. This conclusion has been supported by the independent Commission on Human Medicines’ COVID-19 Vaccine expert advisory group.”

    This study tracked vaccination recipients in 2021 and "found that COVID-19 vaccine recipients had lower non-COVID-19 mortality than did unvaccinated persons." It's not a news article, they're not just looking at COVID deaths.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X22015614

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,669 ✭✭✭walus


    The point I'm trying to get to is that neither can be proven for definite. To confirm or disconfirm the role of vaccine as a contributor to an unexpected excess deaths a formal inquiry should be conducted and scientific methods be used to establish facts.

    It should be of interest of everybody involved to get this done. The public, the health officials and more importantly - pharmaceutical companies.

    The interesting thing about excess deaths is that it happens in majority of western countries and it happens across all age groups, with younger group < 44 years of age as one that is more affected than 45+. There have been attempts to appease public in those countries with varying sets of plausible reasons, including local factors. However most of those reasons do not seat well with the younger, more affected, cohort (i.e. heat waves, aging population etc.). There are other systemic factors at play that are common to all countries that are not being discussed the way they should. Taking the vaccines out of the equation would be a natural thing to do, so that we could get to the bottom of it.

    Edit: source - https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/.

    2018 - year with bad flu and heatwaves

    excess deaths.PNG


    What is not helping currently is a lack of interest and a total lack of action from the authorities to investigate it. Especially that severe adverse effects of vaccines have been documented (i.e. heart inflammation) and myocarditis is known to be linked to about 20% of sudden death syndrome in young adults. It is something that is simply more dangerous for younger people. In addition to that majority of the causes of excess deaths are linked to cardiovascular diseases.

    Therefore there is an argument for some to claim that vaccines may be a contributory factor, and I can see why as it is easy to establish that correlation. Also, I do not see how we can dismiss vaccines without a proper evidence. Without a solid proof, it should be treated as a possibility. I mean, do we have long term safety data that includes multiple jabs?

    I understand that while this possibility may be small we should know quantitatively what it is at this point. In my opinion there is no chance that vaccines have caused 0 deaths, just as there is no chance that they are to blame for all the excess deaths. People are dying due to unknown reasons, and the enquiry should establish how much to that is contributed by vaccines, so that we can get to the bottom of this and prevent those deaths.

    I mean the world has stopped when people started dying of covid. Now they are dying of something else, and hardly anybody seems to be bothered. Strange to say the least.

    Lastly, as for the duck analogy thing, the fact there is no evidence of an effect is quite different to saying that there is no effect. I thought, that is something that needs no explanation.

    Post edited by walus on

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,101 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe




    These vaccines have been taken by the vast majority of the world's population, there are many monitoring, regulatory and safety systems in place. Apart from very rare adverse effects, there are no signs or evidence these vaccines (or others) are behind recent excess deaths.

    There is however evidence that anti-vax groups, grifters, charlatans and individuals are systematically attempting to portray them as dangerous



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,707 ✭✭✭hometruths


    If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,932 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    We can now add eggs to the possible causes of a portion of those sudden deaths that some are blaming on the jabs

    https://newspunch.com/scientists-warn-eggs-are-causing-thousands-of-people-to-suddenly-form-blood-clots/amp/



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,101 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    You added it.

    A small study found consuming choline in foods is generally fine, but there could be a higher risk of blood clot if taking supplements of it.





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 702 ✭✭✭US3


    There's no evidence needed to blame the deaths on eggs (😂) , climate change, fuel shortage, getting out of bed to quick in the morning but if you add 1 + 1 and get 2 you need hard evidence



  • Posts: 4,806 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The main reason for excess deaths is that we acted incredibly irresponsible for 2 years by cancelling all kinds of screenings and treatments and terrifying the population away from medical care.


    Also, obesity was a big concern before COVID but now we've lots of the population working from home and while lots have discipline, there are plenty rolling out of bed at 8:55am who could do with being forced to walk 10 - 15 mins to a bus stop.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,643 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    You're setting expectations that cannot be met based on a flawed premise.

    If you think no one cares about the excess deaths, not even sure why you need to bring vaccines into it? Regardless of vaccines, either you do or don't think it is something worthy of investigation.

    Also, to state no one is interested\investigating, is without foundation. Why do you think UK ONS are tracking this data? What do you think organisations such as UK Health Security Agency (Public Health England) etc do?

    What you're missing is the level of active monitoring of the vaccine rollout programme that is going on. Of all the reasons floated for excess deaths, if it was vaccines we would already know it, or have the best chance of knowing it, due to the level of studies and monitoring going on.

    What makes you think they are not already using scientific methods or dealing in facts in that monitoring?

    Can the extent of the role of vaccines be proven for definite to the standard you are demanding? How would that be done?

    We must assume an autopsy cannot determine whether eg a cardiac related death is due to covid\long covid, vaccination, or some other factor.

    Therefore how would such an enquiry proceed to establish how many deaths are attributable to vaccination?

    They would refer back to all the studies cited on this thread, showing the very low risk of serious adverse events, showing a rare risk of post vaccination myocarditis in most cases mild versus showing the higher relative risk of covid, showing significant raised all cause mortality risk post covid infection.

    How many of the fatalities are due to e.g. people not being put on meds when needed or having procedures done.

    How many of the fatalities are due to e.g. slower ambulance responses

    How many of the fatalities are due to e.g. slower treatment time in A&E

    They would not be able to deal in certainties, but would have to make expert judgments based on imperfect real world data of how to attribute the excess deaths.

    The same kinds of expert judgments that are being made now, stating vaccines are safe (an acceptable safety profile for a medicine) and that the risk of serious adverse events is rare and therefore deemed to be a negligible factor in excess deaths.

    The people who won't accept those judgments now won't accept them from such an enquiry.

    Is it possible vaccines are playing a role? Yes, but how can you definitely prove they are i.e. a negative? SO is that a useful question?

    The real question is - It is plausible vaccines are playing any kind of significant role? Based on all the available data and studies - no.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,712 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    showing a rare risk of post vaccination myocarditis in most cases mild versus showing the higher relative risk of covid, 

    Yeah it's just a bit of "mild" permanent and irreperable heart damage. I'm sure this must be the only person out of all the millions of healthy young people who received an unnecessary (for them) vaccine.


    For young men under 40, the risk of myocarditis is higher after vaccination than it is after covid, and the risk is even higher in adolescents, particularly after moderna, which is why many countries stopped offering it to young people. A lot of young people will be walking around with heart damage and probably don't even know about it

    https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.059970



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,643 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    That's one isolated case report, to which the report even states:

    It should be noted that this patient’s symptoms and arrhythmia could have been caused by unknown factors unrelated to C-VAM. This is a limitation of case reports. 

    Irreparable damage? The report appears to contradict you:

    The patient was restricted from all sports due to the high risk of sudden cardiac death. Repeat exercise stress test one year after initial presentation was normal. Follow-up cMRI 1 year after admission showed stable intensity of subepicardial delayed gadolinium enhancement with no evidence of ongoing myocardial edema (Fig. 1). These findings were consistent with fibrosis secondary to prior myocarditis and the patient’s sports restriction was lifted.

    Whereas...

    Dr Alison Cave, Chief Safety Office for the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA), told Reuters via email: “Following a careful assessment of the available data, we concluded that the evidence does not support an association between the COVID-19 vaccines and an increased risk of cardiac related death. This conclusion has been supported by the independent Commission on Human Medicines’ COVID-19 Vaccine expert advisory group.”

    There is a rare risk of myocarditis post vaccination, most cases are mild. I stand over those comments and they are supported by all the available evidence.

    Any statements to the contrary, without foundation, are mere speculation if not misinformation or scaremongering.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,712 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Irreparable damage? The report appears to contradict you:


    Does it though? It says "these findings were consistent with fibrosis secondary to prior myocarditis". I'm sure you know that fibrosis is damage and unlike other organs, the heart cannot repair itself. Unable to repair = irreparable. So yes, he has irreparable damage which may lead to a risk of heart failure


    They also come to the conclusions that "This case describes a patient with COVID-19 vaccine-associated myocarditis who had ventricular tachycardia up to 6 months after initial diagnosis." . But sure latch on to the previous disclaimer, however unlikely.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,707 ✭✭✭hometruths


    It seems that the following is generally accepted irrespective of your views on the vaccines:

    a) there is a proven risk of myocarditis/heart inflammation from covid vaccines

    b) that risk is proven to be elevated further in young people

    c) myocarditis/heart inflammation can be fatal

    d) there is an ongoing elevated level of excess deaths in young people since sometime last year

    None of the above is in dispute.

    Yet many here think it is totally implausible that any of these young people are dying from vaccine related heart problems.

    Not only that, they think the cold weather/hot weather/fuel crisis etc etc are all totally plausible explanations for the elevated level of excess deaths in young people.

    No matter how hard I try, I struggle to understand the logic here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,643 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    You have deliberately left out a crucial points in a bid to overstate the merits of your premise as well as presenting a strawman case.

    Namely that the established risk is extremely rare.

    And - who said it was implausible that 'any' young people have died as a results of vaccine related heart problems?

    Well? It forms part of your premise.

    What is said is that the premise re vaccines playing a non negligible role in the excess cardiac deaths is implausible because:

    The risk has been looked into and is extremely rare.

    And is less than the risk post covid infection.

    "In the 1–28 days following the first dose of the ChAdOx1, BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273 vaccine, an extra two (95% CI 0, 3), one (95%CI 0, 2) and six (95% CI 2, 8) myocarditis events per 1 million exposed would be anticipated, respectively. In the 1–28 days following the second dose of mRNA-1273, an extra ten (95% CI 7, 11) myocarditis events per 1 million persons would be anticipated. This compares with an extra 40 (95% CI 38, 41) myocarditis events per 1 million in the 1–28 days following a SARS-CoV-2 positive test."

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,707 ✭✭✭hometruths


    I have just simplified down to four key points that are not in dispute.

    There is a risk of myocarditis.

    That risk is elevated in young people.

    I might add that all those citing the weather as a plausible explanation, rarely point out that a young persons's risk of dying from inclement weather is extremely rare. There is a risk no doubt, but it is extremely rare.



Advertisement