Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

1160161163165166174

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭Stormyteacup


    It’s true what you say, but INMO should be striking (pun unintended) while the iron is hot and highlighting and calling for changes that would result in permanent improvement in conditions in healthcare, rather than calling for a mandate for masks which would be an ineffective bandaid, one that that could turn out to be a perpetually ineffective bandaid.

    There are many other ways seasonal infectious illnesses could be better managed. It has been said in this thread before - public sentiment towards masking is obviously lukewarm, as evidenced in the low percentages of voluntary masking, despite authorities advice.

    Even some small inroads made for permanent long term improvements would be a win for INMO during this current crisis.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,479 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    This is also the reason why the health service will keep lurching from one crisis to another .

    INMO are just highlighting the fact that the government appear to have washed their hands of trying to make a real difference, just pawning it off till the next emergency situation with the Healthservice.

    Suggesting a mask mandate is certainly an attention grabber .



  • Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭jimmybobbyschweiz


    In hospitals masks are mandatory and are arguably worn correctly by most people there, unlike in the real world where most of us take off the mask, fiddle with it, reuse it etc.

    Yet the outbreaks are occurring in healthcare settings where mask wearing is at its highest. To argue that masks make much of a difference is to simply bury one's head in the sand and ignore this illogical state of affairs.

    It's all moot anyway; no one will be forced to wear them again and we're now through the winter peak for respiratory illnesses so the INMO media whores can take it easy on their paid-for hysteria pieces trying to coax some reaction from the politicians.



  • Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭jimmybobbyschweiz


    Power-tripping Karens that are using COVID to shoehorn in their demands for better working conditions, at a dramatic cost to the freedoms of wider society.



  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭Stormyteacup


    It’s an attention grabber but it may be that INMO is hitching itself to the wrong wagon. Appetite in government for a mask mandate is obviously low, public buy-in is low - it would be better to address the beginning of long term permanent change in healthcare and hospitals to reduce stress on frontline workers.

    In the short term, triage for A&E seems to be immediately important, as does step-down facilities to free up acute beds, alongside removal of covid-specific protocols in healthcare settings to free up resources.

    Thereafter, recruitment and retention with better pay and conditions, expanded services, better screening, reduction on bureaucracy (if a quarter of the working population could be put on PUP at the stoke of a pen, and private hospitals taken over, why can the contracts of the bureaucrats in the HSE be overwritten and unions silenced on account of a public health emergency)?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,523 ✭✭✭The Davestator


    Throughout Covid, everyone always mentioned how the Chinese wear masks when they feel unwell an this makes a big difference.

    How's the mask wearing going for the Chinese?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    How would it be going for them if they never wore masks?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,863 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Government has no real say in how the HSE works day to day and the government hasn't got the authority to go in and fire people.

    The government will provide the funds, but how it is used is down to the boards etc of the hospitals which the INMO does interact with.

    If the INMO are not happy with the boards on how the money is spent, they need to start naming and shaming the boards, this will force action.

    But at the moment the INMO likes to talk alot but do nothing as they don't want to take the hand away that feeds them!!!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,458 ✭✭✭facehugger99




  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This seems to be the only nonsense I ever see to support masks... A "feeling" that they must help.

    There is nothing in the global data to suggest a mask mandate ever made a difference.

    In fact, hospitals are one of the places where COVID spreads the most. And masks are mandatory there.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    My fear was that the Government would fold under pressure from RTE and the unions

    Donnelly concerns me but thankfully it hasn't happened



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,863 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Masks are not mandatory on wards though, was in visiting a friend last week, you had to wear them in the halls but not in the wards which is odd!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,479 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Yes. Agree. I have said all of this on this forum and others.( Its really only mask related because of the INMO requesting it to be reviewed due to rising cases.)

    I and many others have called for Slaintecare with improved community health management and treatment, more beds, better management with 7day week services in acute hospitals, and strategic plans for retention of staff.

    INMO appear to be calling for the masks as a stop gap because lets face it, government have consistently ignored anything else that might make a difference and the present crisis in A&E which is an annual occurrence but twice as bad as the "usual".

    I don't agree re silencing the unions, stormy. If that is what you meant in the last sentence.

    Unions are important voices in big organisations where the individual can be bullied into silence by management. So many fought hard for the right to be represented by a union and it is nothing but a retrograde step not having unions in some workplaces as we can see where multinational tech jobs can disappear at the whim of management without recourse to Irish or European law.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,863 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Government doesn't run the hospitals, its the hospitals boards and mgmt. Bad mgmt are protected by these so call unions, they can't be let go when they under perform. Too many people in mgmt don't have the correct qualifications either, but thats the way the system works!


    There is no accountability in the hospitals, so the staff at the very front line have to battle through.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,479 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    I disagree. As a member all along if we had an issue with management the unions were supportive. If anything they are not thought strong enough by a lot of members.

    Management do stick together alright.

    Anyway this is interesting but not for the mask thread so won't comnent further.

    And btw don't know where you were visiting but masks are being worn everywhere I have been. Not by patients unless infectious.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭dalyboy


    Which demonstrates exactly what masks are ….. a visual theatrical prop



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    This is the a great example of the nonsense some people spout when they reject the proven efficacy of reducing transmission by wearing masks....A "feeling" they have because they see the virus is spreading.

    There is clear scientific evidence to show that mask can reduce the risk of transmitting the virus. Just because they see an outbreak somewhere they say "mAsKs DoNt WoRk", without having an actual clue, just observing something and jumping to conclusions....sees the virus spreading in hospitals, the place the virus is most likely to be, and uses that as a basis for their opinion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    Based on what? you seem to have more insight than the experts around the world, do share your logic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,863 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Its unfair to say masks don't work, they obviously do but masks can't stop the spread of the virus due to many things, ie people not putting them on correctly, hands on masks etc.


    Would you allow a consultant from a hospital to operate on you without a mask?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    I think it's fair to say, on either side of the argument, that there are studies (clear scientific studies) that back up their view.

    We have lived with this virus, we know people who have had it, more than once more often than not, we all have circle's of friends/family we know the impact of an infection.

    When allowed to, the masses (as in the vast majority) of people have spoken...we saw it when the mandate was lifted last year. We saw it this winter...nobody is wearing them. Look around...if you aren't in a hospital/health setting (where they are expected) you will see at best 5% of people wearing them....given the level of conditioning we have all witnessed, there was always going to be people who can't stop wearing a mask, but the vast vast majority of us cannot be wrong.

    That is not a "feeling", it is the reality that is staring you right in the face.

    How much more evidence do you need, I mean, we all wear seat belts now because that was mandated, if that mandate was lifted do you think over 95% of us would stop wearing them?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Why do you think, specifically, that surgeons/consultants wear masks when operating??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    I'm not arguing for (or against) a mask mandate, let the experts decide that one. I am arguing that the people who claim they are 'theater' are wrong. I firmly believe when worn properly they can reduce the risk of transmission. The fact that the majority are no longer wearing them in public because the mandate has been dropped does not disprove their efficacy. It just indicates that the potential risk has reduced sufficiently that mandates are not required. (I do kind of feel the risk level is creeping up though, if you got Covid today and needed hospital treatment, I am not sure you would be guaranteed to get treated given the state of the ICU's)

    The risk is still very high in hospitals, probably why the mask mandate still applies in healthcare settings. That risk level is lower elsewhere so no mandate, this does not imply 'masks dont work', if they didn't work why have them in healthcare?

    When you say 'how much more evidence do you need?', what are you referring to? evidence that people are not wearing masks broadly does not imply that mask wearing can't reduce transmission rates. People will do what they want to do, my issue is people presenting their incorrect opinions on mask efficacy.

    If the seat belt mandate was lifted tomorrow the risk of being in a car crash would not change, so yes most would keep wearing. The risk from Covid has reduced due to vaccines, immunity, etc. the risk is not the same tomorrow as it was early on in Covid when masks were mandated. I believe that if we started to see large numbers of people dying or getting very sick (and no one wants to see that) then mask wearing rates would increase due to perceived risk, with or without a mandate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭dalyboy


    Because they are operating on OPEN bodies and the masks stop the surgeons spit and possible infections entering the patient’s internal organs/tissue. Far cry from wearing a mask on a hospital corridor where we laughably exist these days.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    You are claiming they are wrong because you "firmly believe" that masks work, you have indicated that there are clear scientific studies, which I don't doubt, but there are also clear scientific studies that indicate they don't work.

    The mandate was lifted last winter in the middle of flu season, we all dropped them the very day the mandate was lifted.

    We all know we are more vulnerable to covid and other viral infections at winter time so the risk of infection is much higher right now, the vast vast majority of us still aren't wearing masks.

    You are refusing to accept that the public do not believe that masks offer any protection from viral infection.

    If they did, the drop off last winter (when the mandate was lifted) would have been gradual, it wasn't, the day it was lifted the masks were gone! If the public did think masks work the percentage of people wearing them thru the winter would have been much higher, no one wants to get sick, it's why we wear jackets at wintertime.

    The vast majority of us know or have figured out what offers protection from infection and what doesn't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,479 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Also protects against aerosolised contamination from patients to healthcare staff.

    Aerosols... Contaminants.. Airborne viruses..

    See the link?

    Why do you say it is laughable?

    It is not funny if you are a hcw or a patient in a Covid ward or any ward atm, at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    You are refusing to accept that the public do not believe that masks offer any protection from viral infection.

    I am arguing that masks, when used properly, are effective at reducing the risk of viral transmission. And I disagree with the people on here that claim masks don't work.

    What the general public believes is a whole other issue. I think they will usually do what they are told regardless of belief "you have to wear a mask now", " you dont have to wear a mask now". Neither changes the fact that masks are effective at reducing the risk of viral transmission. I don't think the publics beliefs should necessarily inform decisions that need to be made on a scientific basis.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    I know what you are arguing, you "firmly believe it" based on clear scientific studies.

    But you ignore the clear scientific studies that exist that indicate masks don't work, no matter how you wear them. (if how a person wears them is a factor then it's fair to say they are useless, the vast majority used them correctly)

    In the absence of scientific consensus on the issue, we are left to look at what the masses in the public think, and that is very clear.

    You accused another poster of spouting nonsense about the efficacy of masks...but you don't seem to realize is that anyone could accuse you of the same and would have more evidence to back them up. (studies, and the actions of the public)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,143 ✭✭✭xhomelezz


    masks stop the surgeons spit

    It's very possible you haven't got a clue..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    The actions of the public are not evidence on mask efficacy. The weight of published studies is evidence, and the vast majority suggest that masks can help reduce the risk of transmission. The only real absence of scientific consensus is around how effective they are, see the link someone posted yesterday trying to make out that masks don't work. If you read the report you might notice the number of reports cited that conclude masks can be effective.

    Public behavior is not informing my opinion, a little reading published studies by experts in their fields is where my opinion is coming from.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9017682/

    You accused another poster of spouting nonsense about the efficacy of masks.

    I was replying verbatim to that poster who accused me of nonsense first, by the way. Give and you shall receive.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Why aren't the actions of the public not evidence, it's a real life case study right there. Do you see masks on kids? Are parents irresponsible? Nobody wants to get sick.

    If we were seeing larger percentages of people wearing masks then I'd agree, that wouldn't be evidence of anything, but it is clear, beyond doubt, over 95% us don't bother with them, last winter (after the mandate was lifted) and this winter.

    We know what works and what doesn't work. The lack of scientific consensus about how effective they are is something that should raise doubt, we know that seat belts save lives, we know to wrap up at wintertime. We know masks do nothing. The problem with masks is IF they are effective, then they stop you building immunity to all the other pathogens in the air, but we know they don't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    Not sure why you cannot get your head around the fact that public behavior does not equate to scientific evidence....actually reading the rest of your post maybe I can.....

    We know masks do nothing. The problem with masks is IF they are effective, then they stop you building immunity to all the other pathogens in the air, but we know they don't.

    How do you know masks do nothing? why does the science disagree with you? And your theories about other pathogens, any actual evidence to back that up? or do you just have a 'feeling'. Not that the 'other pathogen' theory is even relevant to this discussion.

    I will say it again, masks have been proven to reduce the risk of viral transmission. We are not talking about seat belts, jumpers in winter or supposed pathogen immunity deficiencies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    I won't be posting much more more on masks as I feel we've ridden the storm of RTE NBRU and INMO clamouring for masks

    Bus drivers can get back to doing what they do best driving busses and not directing health policy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    The science does't disagree with me, nor does it agree...there is NO scientific consensus. Your "firm belief" is nothing more than a feeling.

    I think there are pathogens in the air.

    Covid is one of them.

    If the masks stop Covid then it is not unreasonable to assume it stops other pathogens.

    If your immune system stops building immunity for a period of time then you may find yourself in bother.

    But it is a mute point.

    You keep ruling out Public behaviour, and I'd agree if what we are all seeing was more mixed, ie 30/70, 60/40, but we are seeing at least 95/5. How do you think they come to their conclusions in their studies? Do you think they mask up Crash Test Dummies? They study human beings.

    Do you think mothers would put a scarf on their kid and not a mask if they thought it would protect the child from illness?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,181 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The scientific consensus is that masks are of benefit in reducing transmission. Trying to establish the exact scope of that effectiveness is difficult outside of lab conditions. There's varying masks in use, mask mandates are brought in in response to rising cases, or more infectious variants. We don't have a stable set of conditions to compare it to. Plus mask mandates are about masks as barriers \ indirect protection rather than directly protecting the wearer. This makes 'experiments' even more challenging.

    It's not like seatbelts where there's a limited set of variables and it's about direct protection.

    That's a very dubious claim re: masks and pathogens. Plus there is a middle ground where eg surgical masks reduce the viral load you are exposed to without blocking it completely.


    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,479 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl




  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Masks do nothing. We had over 25K cases a DAY last year with a mask mandate in place. Important to point out that testing also fell apart and it was a struggle to get one so the numbers were likely multiples higher.

    That alone shows us that they do little to nothing in the community.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭dalyboy


    I’m not sure how you have worked out I’m laughing at health care workers extra work burden from what I wrote. Parallel universe stuff going on in this thread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,479 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    From the post I replied to and queried...

    "Far cry from wearing a mask on a hospital corridor where we laughably exist these days."??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    <sarcasm>

    Seat belts do nothing. We had a 13% increase in road deaths last year and there was a law forcing us to wear them.

    </sarcasm>



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    More cars on the road so very normal. This topic is for masks though



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,181 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The poster was using an analogy to make a relevant point about masks.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    Whoosh....I was pointing out the massive flaw in your logic.



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A very silly one. We all know why there was more road deaths.

    Masks were specifically in place to stop COVID spreading. They didn't.



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    By telling us there were more road deaths with more cars on the road...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,181 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Another obvious deflection. First you were calling it off topic. Now it is silly.

    Looking at a raw case count and saying masks did nothing is completely iillogical. There are 5 million people in Ireland. 25000 or 50000 cases a day - given how infectious covid is something was stopping it hitting everyone at once.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,103 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Would also depend on how they are worn, and where they are kept before worn. Also depends on doing other stuff like washing your hands etc. I mean when a health official wears a mask they put it on correctly (eg over the mouth and nose) bin it straight away (reusables should be washed very regularly) and then wash or sanitize there hands.

    Also masks are there to help prevent the spread of Covid (or any other pathogen) not stop along with other measures.



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    We know seat belts work. You can simply go on YouTube and watch a video with crash test dummies not wearing a seatbelt and see the results for yourself... So that's that discredited.


    COVID hasn't gone away you know... Why was there not 5 million cases on say 5th June 2022 with no restrictions or masks in place?

    There is nothing in the data to suggest mask mandates ever made a difference to case numbers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    OK I will spell it out for you again since you are pretending not to get it....Your notion, that masks don't work because there were virus outbreaks coinciding with mask mandates, is stupid. Flawed logic that highlights your lack of understanding of all the factors at play.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    Masks are there to reduce the risk of transmission, where did you hear that they are there to stop the spread? Who is claiming they will stop the spread?

    You are obviously misinformed or incapable of telling the difference between reducing something and eliminating something.....and you say I make silly points 🙄



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    How much do they reduce the spread by?

    Not very much if a country as small as Ireland has 25K identified cases and likely a lot more in 1 day.

    The authorities obviously agree or we'd have a mask mandate right now.



  • Advertisement
Advertisement