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Softening house market?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,107 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Hard luck Digital Times. Unlike yourself (obviously) I'm well aware of the meaning of the phrase

    There is a difference between "fair value" and "market value" too. They are normally coincident, and you prefer them to be, but they don't absolutely have to be. "Fair value" is the one you generally want for accounting standards though


    The price that all those houses sell for sets the "market value". By definition



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sure sure. You forgot one little detail, market rate is not static and changes over time. Time passes between when the property is listed and when it sells. That's why the use of the term oxymoron is incorrect in this instance, I'm sure you would have figured that out eventually.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,285 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Data appears to show house prices increased at a rate of about 10%. There is also data showing that inflation is about 10%. That pretty much means the market is static.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Salary increases for most haven't matched inflation, houses are still costing the average worker more to purchase.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,771 ✭✭✭C3PO




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,771 ✭✭✭C3PO


    Myself and my ex sold our house in south county Dublin at the start of November at significantly over asking. Since then I have been looking to buy “mortgage free” somewhere in the South East. Every house that I look at (that doesn’t require work) sells at asking or a bit above. The only price drops I’ve seen are on places that need work which I suspect people are nervous about taking on at the moment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,325 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    That's fair enough, but I don't understand how you expect prices to fall by 10% and at the same time you sold property for 150k over asking.


    None of it makes any sense, but time will tell I suppose.



  • Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭IWW2900


    Its simple, I sold before the rate hikes and recession....



  • Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭byrne249



    What happens if in reality you sold just before hyperinflation takes hold and all you cash ends up turning into paper overnight. That's a very real possibility too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,285 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    wage increases follow inflation and when wages catch up it means houses have got cheaper.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,932 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Because generally inflation increases the prices of everything within an economy

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭IWW2900


    LOL, if we see hyper inflation in developed Countries we have bigger problems then the price of my house. Are you one of those guys who stores gold under your pillow?.

    We are just seeing typical cycle, rates will rise until inflation is gone and asset prices will be way down. People dont understand the level of tightening coming.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    when you sold your investment property did you trade in for a hotel?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    As long as houses prices don't continue to rise while the wage increases are negotiated. Problem with inflation is that everything gets more expensive so its not like people have more money just spend on housing when they get the pay rise. The cost of credit goes up to curb inflation making the cost of the mortgage more expensive. The only thing that really makes houses cheaper is when their price drops.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    And property has historically been a natural hedge against inflation for investors



  • Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭byrne249


    'People don't understand the level of tightening coming'. Mere fear mongering and hubris. Neither do you or anyone. Inflation could be solved by 3%.

    It must have been painful for you to see the ECB already dialling back on increases last week to 0.5%. How long before they scale back to 0.25%? My guess is March/May.

    I'd love to see price drops as much as anyone but I don't see anything significant happening next year either way. By the way, Do you have a source that states the interest rates and the property market are highly correlated?



  • Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭IWW2900


    Im fear mongering?!, you are the one talking about hyperinflation.

    Its healthy to see price drops after silly rises over last number of years, caused by low interest rates.....but Im fear mongering....ok.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,494 ✭✭✭fliball123


    The facts are its going to take at least a decade for vast majority of peoples wages to catch up to the inflation rates increases seen over the last 2 years. So prices will have to come down or there will be houses not sold. Its not just houses it every aspect of life that has sky rocketed and I truly believe we will see a different existence in this country come the new year. A lot of people are going to lose their jobs in the next 12/24 months and I can see a lot of emigration outwards happening again in Ireland over the next 12/24 months its then that IMO prices will drop. If the war in the Ukraine ends and China finally open up the current supply chain issues will be gone. We could have another 2% increase in interest rates over the next 12 months as well. A lot of people will have to wake up to a new reality. I don't know about anyone else but I have been out in Dublin 3 times this month and all at the weekend and the usual wall to wall claustrophobic overcrowding in the pub I had gotten used to over the decade preceding the pandemic simply was not there. Are we turning a corner with regards to peoples spending habits? Its anecdotal but if people are no longer willing to shell out the ridiculously high prices for goods and services that they got cheaper 2/3/4 years ago and their wages will come no where near the new costs. What happens?



  • Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭byrne249


    My comment about hyperinflation was tongue in cheek to emphasise how ridiculous some of your statements have been.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭Tonesjones


    David mcwilliams says higher interest rates leads to lower property prices like night follows day



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    He also said the best action that the Irish government could do during ‘08 crash was to guarantee all deposits. They took his advice and the country went bankrupt.



  • Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭IWW2900


    Of course, make a stupid, get called out. "It was tongue in cheek"😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭DataDude


    David McWilliams promised me lower house prices in 2020. Buyers strike or something. He still owes me a few hundred grand!



  • Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭IWW2900


    People dont understand that it takes time. Even if they stop raising rates now, property prices will fall....but there is a lag. Its not like they are going to stop raising and then start lowering. These higher rates are going to be around for years.

    First stocks, then recession, then jobs, property prices generally last.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭DataDude


    Wage inflation is the big unknown. Tech is clearly under pressure but suspect their pay rises have been far outstripping even current inflation up until the recent slowdown.

    Large parts of the economy, particularly the house buying cohort, are fairly strong at the moment and for the first time in my working life I will start to see 5-7% across the board inflationary increases. Lower paid members of staff potentially seeing even higher.

    Not saying it will match current CPI, but significantly higher than normal wage inflation is going to be a thing next year for the majority of workers. Look at the public sector!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,267 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    Who would of thought a global pandemic where economies shut down for months would of sent house prices spiralling up. I literally pulled out of sale at the start because I said to myself Im overpaying.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭Tonesjones


    But there wasn't a buyers strike. That's not his fault . And those who bought in the pandemic frenzy may end up wishing they didn't.

    See the United States, see Canada, see Australia, see New Zealand see United Kingdom.

    Although the government and central bank won't allow house prices to fall.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,107 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    People talking about high interest rates appear to be only considering it in relation to homeowners.

    Investors with cash earning 0% were a large source of money being pumped into the market over the past few years. You can read back on plenty of threads over that time where people reason that "You might as well invest it rather than leave it sitting there". Some of those people may well decide to extract their money back out, and people who would have taken that option might instead opt for cash for the time being.


    That's all property. Not just residential. But there will be correlations between the different types



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭DataDude


    I know. Crazy stuff. But I think the takeway is that predicting the property market is very complicated!

    I think anyone now who could go back and buy a property when McWilliams was screaming not to, surely would.

    Prices up 25%+, more in the countries you quoted, mortgage rates soon to be 2%+ higher. Even if there’s an impending correction coming, it’s very difficult to imagine a scenario where someone who held off buying in 2020 will be better off for having done so.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,739 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Look at what the state has done in the interim however.

    We have decided that instead of having a department with responsibility for the actual delivery of housing and ramping up employees to do it we instead put money into the pockets of private developers who have proven time and time again that corners will be cut if possible, prices will change almost at will and who ultimately haven't and don't solve the problem..this coupled with the fact that HAP goes straight into the pockets of an ever increasing number of culture funds, foreign pension funds etc instead of being put towards building actual houses says a lot for the privatisation of accomodation provision if you ask me. Even the move away from local authority mortgage provision until relatively recently was a retrograde step. Couple all that with the state bidding against people to buy up housing and you genuinely have a basket case.

    It would be far more efficient to directly hire the skill sets to deliver housing and CPO land (if for some reason the hectares of nama owned land didn't suit) to deliver social housing and in doing so reduce the social housing lists (this stopping the state bidding against citizens for housing) reduce the spend on HAP(again which should lead to reduced overall rents) and finally lead to a reduction in all of the NGOs that are tied up in housing.

    I know that things weren't perfect with housing 'back in my day' and that the state aren't always good at delivering certain services but HAP and the backlog in social housing as well as the state's policies in dealing with them have led to major problems.



This discussion has been closed.
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