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Who has Priority here? Almost Fatal Accident

12346

Answers

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,324 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Why am I not surprised that you would be driving in the overtaking lane of a motorway for no reason?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,082 ✭✭✭standardg60


    That sign is for motorists, advising them that they should keep out to avoid vehicles that are waiting to turn out of the junction.

    As said earlier the signage is dreadful, the cycle lane is actually the inside lane, note the bubbled slabs indicating the junction for pedestrians.

    With my cyclist hat on yes the cyclist should have yielded approaching the junction as there's no signage indicating it continues on, which is why i'd be on the road in the first place as others have advised.

    As a driver however any day of the week i'm approaching the junction knowing i'm going to turn i'm going to make myself aware of any traffic, cyclist, jogger, pedestrian whatever approaching at the same time i'm going to wait until i know we're both aware of each other's intentions.

    If i barrel through cos i have 'right of way' i'm just an inconsiderate bullying w@nker and if i don't know they're there in the first place i shouldn't be on the road.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,431 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    The cyclist did not leave the cycling track, not did it end. Have you looked at the video yet? The cycle lane doesn't exist but neither does the turn after 2019.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,431 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    It actually does, legally, not ethically. The broken yellow line demarcates the edge of a carriageway so if you want to be a pedant, the car effectively drove across a footpath/bike lane as the side road is effectively marked as no more important legislatively than a drive way. Now you, I or anyone else knows this isn't reality but since you can't make your mind up on what is more important, being obvious or being legal rather than focusing on what is decent , I'll leave you to it.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,431 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    That's not how right of way works in regards crossing a cycle track, although this one appears to be designed by Schrödinger.



  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Sono Topolino



    Exactly. The cycling rights activists (as the Lycra Mob love to call themselves) want us motorists to assume that they never follow the rules of the road, while arguing against compulsory theory tests, insurance and number plates for their racing bikes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,082 ✭✭✭standardg60


    In fairness Cram there is no signage indicating the cycle lane continues, so therefore pedants who've never cycled can argue the cyclist should have stopped to allow the motorised car to turn. Of course they've zero consideration of the amount of energy required to regain the momentum they had before stopping cos they would only have had to blip the throttle after waiting for a couple of seconds for the cyclist to continue on their journey.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭chooseusername




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,886 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    I would not agree that the sign is for road traffic.

    My opinion it’s to warn cyclists that the cycle lane stops here and they need to go on the road and re join at the other side.

    Given the positioning of the stop sign lines on the far side of the road a vehicle stopped there would block the projected cycle path unless the cyclist entered the carriage way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    Doesn't matter, I've made this argument multiple times and it has been ignored/dismissed by people who claim to have full driver's licenses. The amount of self-deception they go through is ridiculous.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,560 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Why would they put a sign like that in place when the original street view from 2011 shows the sign in place but the stop line for the driveway respecting the cycle path and footpath?

    The sign is for motorists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,082 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Then the sign would be in the middle of the path, which it's not, and regardless as i've said that's the footpath and not the cycle lane.

    Agree on the stop sign line, if it was further back allowing for a demarcated cycle lane cars exiting wouldn't be able to see the traffic, so they've just ignored the natural line of the cycle lane which is typical, which is why i don't use them.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Of course they've zero consideration of the amount of energy required to regain the momentum they had before stopping

    What has that got to do with anything?



    .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,082 ✭✭✭standardg60




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,560 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    the car driver had passed the cyclist, yes. do you think they'd managed it with enough distance to safely execute a left across the cyclist?

    if they'd achieved that much gap ahead of another car driver, do you think an overtake and left turn with a gap of a few metres, would be considered sane?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Are you being serious? If you are, I think its ridiculous.

    Drivers have enough to concentrate on when behind the wheel without worrying about how much energy it takes cyclists to stop and start at junctions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,866 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I was racing the other drivers to get to the slip road exit before them. It’s the recommended tactic around here.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,431 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    What sign? There was a sign to the right of the path, or more correctly, a sign related to the traffic lane to the left.

    You can not agree all you want but that doesn't make your flagrant misunderstanding of basic road signage any more correct.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,866 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    What would you have done if you were driving, aware that you had just passed a cyclist one second ago?



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,431 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    A, B, C, D. With the exception of motorbikes I drive all on a regular basis for work (I love motorbikes but haven't driven one regularly for years) The self deception strongly falls on those who not only think that wilful misinterpretation of the rules is OK but that somehow by following that narrow black/white view without looking at SIs or legal interpretation they are somehow right. It's almost comical.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,431 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    I see your point but where should they have stopped? I mean, in all my years walking, cycling or driving, no one has told me where I should stop to give way to what is effectively someone turn into their driveway on the same note, years of not being 'not an absolute c*nt' have let me realise I shouldn't cut across a more vunerable road user. Oddly it's never cost me time either.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,560 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    one thing is clear - approaching that junction, there is no signage visible to motorists or cyclists about priority, or whether the cycle lane continues through the junction or not. there's nothing to tell the motorist that the cyclist must yield to them or not; as far as the motorist was concerned, the cyclist may have had the right of way, or none at all.

    we're here poring through google street view imagery trying to figure out what whoever designed that junction intended, and how badly it's been maintained since. obviously none of this was available to cyclist or motorist at the time.

    so what happened? the cyclist did check - later than they should have, probably - but they checked, and managed to brake in time. the motorist proceeded anyway, and did *not* stop.

    so the fact that there was not a collision was mainly a) down to luck; and b) the actions of the cyclist. a motorist proceeding on the assumption they have right of way - especially over another road user they've approached from behind - should not be allowed drive a car.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,560 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i think we've scared the OP off.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,082 ✭✭✭standardg60


    And people who would argue that overtaking anything on their left just prior to turning left and not ascertaining their whereabouts or intentions prior to making the turn is not a dick move



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Nobody was overtaken. The cyclist was not on the road.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,560 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,886 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    One thing is absolutely clear to any sensible person.

    The cycle lane does NOT continue through the junction.

    The cyclist should have ensured the way was clear before crossing the road, just like a pedestrian.

    Let’s not go “poring “ over anything to establish that simple situation which is the key to all this.


    We don’t need to go back to Viking cartography to establish that surely.?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,866 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Is this some kind of Schrödingers cyclist thing, where the cyclist ceases to exist when using the cycle lane?

    You forget to mention about the driver checking where the cyclist that they passed one second earlier had gone.

    Surely we don’t need to go back to Viking cartography to establish that?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    One thing is absolutely clear to any sensible person.

    The cycle lane does NOT continue through the junction.

    Fair enough. What we do know is that the road edge is defined with the orange paint. According to our Traffic Signs Manual, what exactly defines the end of the cycle path which should not be a big ask given how "absolutely clear" it is?

    The cyclist should have ensured the way was clear before crossing the road, just like a pedestrian.

    The cyclist was the only one who altered their speed because of the other person.

    However, let's just say that a school kid was the one on the bike and they didnt realise how "absolutely clear" it is that the cycle lane ended and ended up getting hit by the driver.

    1. How would the drivers insurance have assigned responsibility?
    2. How would the gardai have assigned responsibility?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,886 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    If the cycle lane ‘continued’ through the junction one would suggest there would be hatched lines delineating that situation.

    Bearing that in mind and the position of the stop lines at the exit ,one would assume a sensible cyclist would check the clearance before crossing .

    Would it be too much to expect a sensible person to assess the signage or indeed, lack of it before taking part in a risky manouvre .

    Bringing other scenarios in to this is a different kettle of fish and in my opinion not really relevant.

    Of course there needs to be better signage at this junction but given the situation it behoves the cyclist or other pathway user to ensure clearance before crossing.

    Sometimes we need to think for ourselves as adults rather than trying to deflect to others.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    So I believe that you're saying that because your opinion on where the cycle lane ends is not based on actual standards contained wihtin the TSM but is based on suggestions, assumptions and a "Would it be too much to expect " then it must not be "absolutely clear" - have I got that right?

    As for other scenarios, why not consider them - surely our infrastructure is designed for all so should it not make a difference to the decision on whether ot not to slow down for someone else? Go on, have a go at answering my questions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,886 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    No problem, my point is that sometimes we have to make decisions as adults and not expect everything to be perfect.

    I already eXplained why the cycle lane is interrupted at the crossing, check the positioning of the stop lines at the other side.

    Sometimes folk try to make a big deal of things and throw out chaff to try to disguise their mistake.

    Lets act like adults and hold our hands up as it appears this cyclist should do.

    Its very simple be careful crossing a road.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,560 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    do you not realise that we are saying that the motorist has zero visual clues as to whether the cycle lane continues uninterrupted or not?

    and that a large part of the problem is that he (assuming it's a he) proceeds as if it does not. which would be fine if the cycle path was empty. but he cut across a cyclist he'd had plenty of opportunity to see.

    so regardless of what you think of the actions of the cyclist, the motorist was in the wrong. the motorist being in the wrong does not have a bearing on whether the cyclist was in the wrong or not.

    and i'll repeat (again) that the collision did not occur, not because the motorist saw the approaching hazard, but because the cyclist did.


    another way of looking at it; if you're driving, say on an R road, and you see someone in a car pulling out of a minor road a short distance in front of you - do you a) brake to avoid a collision, or b) continue on as you have priority and are 'in the right'?

    you bet your ass you brake. your primary duty is to avoid collisions. everything else about priority is secondary.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    Would a pedestrian be in their rights to cross the road there and expect a car to stop?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,560 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    if the pedestrian has their foot on the road surface, they gain ROW over the motorist IIRC. there's no such clarity for cyclists, also IIRC.

    though it depends on what you mean by 'expect' - legally expect, or 'expect' in a broader sense? you'd expect a motorist to be aware of a potential hazard they can see up ahead, and be prepared to stop because it's the prudent thing to do.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,997 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    the driver was a complete dick

    did they think the cyclist was going to completely disappear 2 seconds after they passed them?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,975 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Motorist is either a complete moron or a vindictive idiot.

    Anyone that thinks the motorist was correct to do what they did needs to learn to drive properly.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,560 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    (2) A driver approaching a road junction shall yield the right of way to another vehicle which has commenced to turn or cross at the junction in accordance with these bye-laws, and to a pedestrian who has commenced to cross at the junction in accordance with these bye-laws.

    https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    The cyclist should have dismounted and would then have the same rights as a pedestrian



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    I think this argument will just go round and round.

    One thing I hope everyone can agree on is that it is a terribly designed junction and the local authority or nra or whoever designed and laid it out with its current markings is massively at fault. Junctions with clear indications of who has right of way are essential. No matter what side of the argument you are on you are an idiot if you think this is clear one way or the other, as demonstrated by the debate here.

    What I find funny aswell is people saying you shouldn't have passed your test if you don't understand the cyclist has right of way as the lane extends. I sat my test 13ish years ago, don't think there was any cycle lanes on my route, majority of drivers out there are probably similar. I'm not saying that is an excuse for not knowing the rules around them. But if the authorities are going to implement more cycle lanes which they should, they need to very clear to all who has right of way, not like that shambles of a junction.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Knowing how most cyclists behave, I would have held back here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,866 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    It's very simple. If you're driving a tonne or two of metal around vulnerable road users, don't forget the vulnerable road users that you passed just one second ago when you're changing direction.

    I'd bet the driver never saw the cyclist through their obscured side windows. It's just common sense to make sure your windows are clear before starting your journey.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,894 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    To avoid guessing games, the Road Safety Authority website is at RSA.ie. They have a lot of information there, and it's all based on the current law.

    There is clarity about cyclists and crossings: Cyclists are road users, and as such they must obey the Rules of the Road, including the rules regarding ceding the right of way when crossing traffic. Remember that unless a rule specifically says what type of road user it applies to, it applies to all types of road user.

    It's a good idea to have a read the Rules of the Road regardless of what you travel on or in - it's a free download, there's no excuse. Memorising something to pass a test isn't the same as learning it, and besides, the do rules change over the years.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,560 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    yeah, the law was written in 64 by the looks of it, when there was no such thing as a cycle path; so would have assumed the cyclist was on the road and obviously wouldn't take into account that a cyclist could be in a similar position to a pedestrian.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    There is clarity about cyclists and crossings: Cyclists are road users, and as such they must obey the Rules of the Road, including the rules regarding ceding the right of way when crossing traffic. Remember that unless a rule specifically says what type of road user it applies to, it applies to all types of road user.

    I think the point being made is that through poor design, the cycle lane and road markings do not explicitly cede right of way for the cyclist. This is why the driver in their fogged up car continued to barrell through the junction without thinking about anyone else incuding the cyclst they literally just passed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,324 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Consideration for the amount of energy it takes to restart from stopped is totally irrelevant to the situation at hand.

    As an experience cyclist I would slow down to allow the indicating car to turn and thus avoid the need to stop and restart.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12 ConorBobFinn13


    I'm still here don't worry. I'm new to boards and I wasn't expecting so many people to get into it. I am thankful for all the advice from everyone. I'm learning a lot about road layout standards and that a cyclist can never assume anything from a driver. I cycled the same route this morning and took the road instead of the "cycle lane" and lo and behold I got beeped at twice by two passing cars. Unless they were beeping at another car user I'm not sure. And I was only on the road from Lehane Motors Toyota to the other side of that f**ked up junction. No winning is there 😅



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,560 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    (pedantic hat on) a lot of what's on the RSA site and in the ROTR is not based on law; you can usually tell the difference in the ROTR where if they say 'should', that's advice, not law; but 'must' is based on law.

    e.g. they will say 'pedestrians should wear hivis'; this is not based on law but what they think is good practice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,324 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Ignoring the argument about who is right or wrong, whatever your side, it doesn't change based on the type of people involved. Be that a child, an OAP or something in the middle.

    If you are relying on that for your road safety then I recommend a reassessment.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,324 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Maybe the prudent thing to do, as any road user, when you are describing yourself as "a potential hazard" is to remove yourself from that situation rather than rely on others to avoid you?



This discussion has been closed.
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