Who has Priority here? Almost Fatal Accident

ConorBobFinn13 · 09-12-2022 11:34AM #1

I use this cycle way almost every morning and never had a major incident until this morning. I was cycling as normal at around 8am. Fully, visible with lights, hi-viz etc. I was coming up to this junction/ entrance to a factory. As I approached the dropped kerb (just past the bollard) a car was approaching from my right at almost exactly the same time. It was unfortunate timing that the both of us were there at the exact same time. I was under the impression that I could just keep cycling as I thought the cycle lane continues and the single broken yellow line meant that drivers could only cross that line if it is safe to do so and if there were no pedestrians or cyclists there. Anyway the car cut me off almost hitting me if I hadn't breaked. Can someone tell me in an area/setup/situation like this who has priority? PS I hope my sketch makes sense. I also have this whole thing captured on my Action Cam.

cml387 · 09-12-2022 12:08PM

If I were the driver I would have let you go through the junction (provided I saw you, of course).

As an occasional cyclist I'd also be aware of the possibility of traffic turning into that junction.

And I'm not suggesting that this is so in your case, but the tendency for pedestrians and cyclist to be in a world of their own listening on airpods is a contributory factor

09-12-2022 12:16PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119974653#Comment_119974653

Is that what that sign means?

It's not, the poster is incorrect. A white arrow like that on a blue background just means "Keep Right" - it applys to users on the road, not the cycle lane. In this case it's likely to prevent motorists cutting the corner too tightly.

But even though that is an entrance to a factory not a road, am I still at fault?

Completely irrelevant.

Does that single broken yellow line mean you can only drive over it if it is safe to do so?

No, a broken yellow line simply marks the edge of the carriageway.

The most important element here is that the cycle lane is not on the road. If the cycle lane had been part of the road, the motorist would have been required to allow you to proceed before performing their turn. In this case, you are attempting to join the roadway: you must give way to traffic already on the road.

KrisW1001 · 09-12-2022 12:17PM

I’m pretty sure the “keep right” bollard here, circled, is for cyclists (it’s too small for cars, and makes no sense for them, as they are already on the road). In that case, you should not have passed it, and your correct path would be what I marked in dashed blue lines. However, that’s a bit of a mess, as you cannot get from the “cycle lane” onto the road without hopping down over a kerb - there should be a dropped kerb to the right here, just ahead of this bollard. But even so, it is telling you to move right, back onto the road, if you want to pass the junction.

That said, you’re right that as a car driver, I cannot turn left here unless I know the way is clear and it is safe to do so - that’s the general rule. I (the car) am leaving my road, so I automatically lose right of way and can’t continue until it’s safe. Whether or not I am using an indicator doesn’t matter (it’s amazing how many drivers think that just flashing an amber light allows them to leap into a road in front of other people) - I cannot just move if there are other people crossing or coming alongside me, and I should not try to turn until I am sure that any pedestrians or cyclists who could cross my path are not going to try it.

But I think you were also incorrect to assume you could sail through, though. Would you chance this if you were a pedestrian? If not, being on a bike gives you no extra rights (the opposite, in fact). If both you and a car come to the area at the same time, you’re both supposed to stop, and one or other of you can go once you have. The car has to stop anyway to make its turn, so you should have been waved through, but as the path you took meant that you were about to cross traffic, you really should have slowed down and been prepared to stop: I don’t see how you would have right of way in this situation. If the timing was really unlucky, you would have approached the car in the driver’s blind-spot as they made the turn.

If you followed the direction of the keep-right sign, and moved out onto the road, then I think you would definitely have had right of way, because now you’re on the same road as the car, and moving forward, while they need to cross your path in order to leave. The car driver is more likely to have seen you coming up on the inside too, as you’d be in their side-mirror just before they made the turn.

But honestly, “He Had Right Of Way” makes a lousy epitaph. Whenever your path changes or crosses another, It’s best not to assume you automatically retain the right of way just because you are going forwards. When I drive, or walk, I don’t ever leave a path I’m on without being sure I won’t get hit by something else . The same should apply to a cyclist.

JMcL · 09-12-2022 12:26PM

I think this is yet another example of a rubbish box ticking "cycle lane" that's all too common in this country. They're at best unfriendly, at worst death traps, and almost always poorly maintained.

Most of the similar ones I've seen will have a yield before every junction, there's nothing at all clear in this case, but since you're coming off the pavement, I'd imagine there's a de-facto yield there. Even if you do have right of way, were it me I'd be looking over my shoulder to make sure some bell-end isn't going to left hook you. The driver doesn't get off the hook here either I'd think - they should be sufficiently situationally aware that a) they saw you in the first place - which they should have but humans have a trait of often only seeing what they expect to see, and b) they should expect that you might continue to go straight ahead and make allowances.

Personally I tend to stay on the road where such "cycle lanes" exist. I did try using one for a while, but found it too dangerous as I was having to come to a stop at a series of roundabouts with poor visibility, risking getting t-boned by drivers coming round carrying too much speed, then having to stop/start again in the traffic island in the middle before continuing. On the road you have the same priority as other traffic, no matter how much the Journal commentator brigade might want to protest otherwise, plus you've better visibility as you're less of a peripheral object. I'd really recommend it if you're confident enough on the bike

CramCycle · 09-12-2022 01:31PM

Weird interpretatins of the law and some wild misunderstanding of it on this thread already.

Start with the facts until the OP puts it up on youtube (you can just drop a link).

The actual layout if the junction is in bits and if there was a fatality there, the council would undoubtedly be brought in as a contributory party by the coroners court due to the lazy half assed job done here. The cycle lane (which according to the signage is actually on the inside, so they weren't even arsed getting the right way round signage up). should be clearly demarcated through the junction as a reminder to road users. The Stop sign on the road at the T junction actually is to far forward for some bizarre reason blocking both pedestrians and cyclists. If the cycle lane is not part of the road way and loses priority it should have a yield sign but this doesn't give a car the right to take the corner if someone is about to cross.

If the motorist was ahead of you and indicated well before the turn then they have the right of way, this does not absolve them of their duty to not proceed when it would endanger them or others. It would leave you partially to blame. If on the other hand they overtook you right before and hooked you, they are fully to blame.

The blue arrow is not telling cyclists to get on the road, it is too stop motorists cutting the corner and to keep out of the cycle lane, pedestrian area. Anyone who thinks it is telling people to join the road before it should hand in their license.

If you could upload it to youtube and share a link it would be easier to see who is at fault but most of this lays with the council and potentially the driver, although I'd always be expecting it and let a roar to wake them up before the corner. A large friendly "Good Morning" to stop tyhem gazing at their phone usually wakes the sleepy early morning motorists up.

Smee_Again · 09-12-2022 11:39AM

You're not part of the road so the vehicle, same as if you were a pedestrian.

I just wouldn't use that "cycle lane" and stick to the road.

Trigger Happy · 09-12-2022 11:41AM

I think it depends on whether that is an offical cycle lane or not.

If that is a cycle lane then the car should not have crossed your path and he is at fault.

If that is not a cycle lane then you should not have been cycling on the footpath and exiting on to the road there as the car had right of way.

Allinall · 09-12-2022 11:49AM

To me it looks like it is an official cycle lane, bit the sign with the arrow means you need to re-join the road at that point.

You can see after the junction where the cycle lane markings are back on the footpath.

ELM327 · 09-12-2022 11:50AM

There is no cycle lane marked on the road.

Generally when that happens there is a yield marked at the end of the cycle road but for me you/cyclist are at fault.

ConorBobFinn13 · 09-12-2022 11:50AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119974588#Comment_119974588

As far as I know this is an official cycle lane. It's a shared path. Pedestrians and Cyclists. It is signed throughout the lane. It's on N27 Road in Cork. From the Kinsale Road Roundabout to the Airport. If you check Google Street View you can clearly see the signs. It's very difficult to know who's in the right or wrong in a situation like this

ConorBobFinn13 · 09-12-2022 11:58AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119974616#Comment_119974616

Is that what that sign means? Okay that's grand so thanks. But even though that is an entrance to a factory not a road, am I still at fault? Like the car blatantly just drove in front of me and cut me off. No regard. Does that single broken yellow line mean you can only drive over it if it is safe to do so?

ConorBobFinn13 · 09-12-2022 12:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119974626#Comment_119974626

It is a cycle lane though. It just stops at that entrance and continues after.

ConorBobFinn13 · 09-12-2022 12:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119974576#Comment_119974576

But I thought if a cyclist doesn't use a cycle lane, if there is a cycle lane there, the cyclist is at fault.

ELM327 · 09-12-2022 12:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119974661#Comment_119974661

Its not painted on the road, so it's not on the road.

Smee_Again · 09-12-2022 12:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119974684#Comment_119974684

No obligation to use a cycle lane unless it is through a pedestrianized street or is a contraflow lane.

Having looked at the road on google maps I wouldn't use the road, I'd stick to the cycle lane but I'd be giving way at junctions.

ConorBobFinn13 · 09-12-2022 12:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119974754#Comment_119974754

Well man, You made a lot of sense there and I appreciate you going into so much depth and analysis. That entire cycle lane is a mess you're right. If there was a way to attach my video I would but not sure how to. I think embedding it or something. The video shows a lot more details obviously. Well anyway, thanks a million. I think we're good here. I'll make sure to drive on the road at that point in future. It's too dodgy there anyway. Even cars coming out of the factory too.

ConorBobFinn13 · 09-12-2022 12:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119974698#Comment_119974698

I agree. I'm with you on this one. But I am always wary of what's goin on around me. I even have a side mirror on my bike. I drive as well so I know exactly how a cyclist feels around cars and how a driver feels around bikes. If I plan on turning left I would always let the cyclist/walker past no matter what. Maybe it's just good manners I don't know. It is scary on a bike out there these days. Very scary indeed. Much scarier than in a car.

vandriver · 09-12-2022 12:42PM

As a professional driver(taxi),I would always yield to a cyclist in this situation .

I don't care if I might theoretically have right of way,because my right of way doesn't trump your right to life.

Furze99 · 09-12-2022 12:59PM

Surely this is a common case where both parties should be careful and neither have an automatic right of way. Since as a cyclist, the OP will generally come off worse, it behoves them to be aware and take that bit extra care at this junction in the practical world. I certainly wouldn't sail across.

baldbear · 09-12-2022 01:03PM

If i was on a bike I'd be wary of a gobsh*te killing me in this scenario so I would always assume the safe side and wait for them to go.

adunis · 09-12-2022 01:14PM

Hmmmmm

Here's a wild thought.

I'm on a bicycle

Everybody and everything on the road is out to kill me.

IE the same mindset everybody on a motorbike who isn't dead hads at all times......

ConorBobFinn13 · 09-12-2022 02:02PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXnw6ZMWNyA

This is the video. Any feedback I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks everyone. No sound because I'm letting out some f'n's and blindin's

cruizer101 · 09-12-2022 02:10PM

Its a terrible junction. I would have thought cycle lane ends as there are no markings for it going across the road, as such cyclist should yield to cars.

That said if I was in a car approaching with a cyclist close to the junction I'd be slowing ready to stop depending on how they proceed.

The blue arrow tbh I don't really know what its for, some have said to stop car cutting junction, why would car be driving over the path and cutting the junction anyway, and if it was for that would it not be right at the bend instead of back from it?

Also is there something strange going on with this thread for others or is it just me? there is multiple posts listed as #1 and initial posts aren't in correct time order. There was also a reply I read from cramcycle I think which has disappeared.

CramCycle · 09-12-2022 02:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975231#Comment_119975231

Motorist is in the wrong but, and this gauls me to say it, you should have seen it coming. He had his indicator on and overtook you right before the junction. 99.9% of the time if they are letting you go, they will hang back. So the motorist was 100% in the wrong but, and this sounds like victim blaming because it is, as soon as he came by at 19 seconds, you should have either let a roar as loud as you could or you should have started to stop. This said, you had less than 2 seconds to work that out but after awhile of cycling on Irish roads it should be a natural reflex for your own safety. My father was a great believer of the "I'll have them write how I was right on my headstone", I on the other hand, while I'd have followed and being an absolute confrontational c**t, I'd not have risked going under the wheels to prove I was in the right.

Forgetting the legal aspect, you should start looking around you before you come to any junction, I didn't see your head move much before the junction, get used to looking around. It gives you more info but it also, oddly, helps people recognise you. Once you seen he was coming up, raise your hand to wave if your planning on going on through, so you can see he has recognised you. Once he makes it clear he is still going by going past, accept that he is and you can then decide to either report him to the gardai (who will do nothing) or his employer (Ferrero, Cork).

ConorBobFinn13 · 09-12-2022 02:19PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXnw6ZMWNyA

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975069#Comment_119975069

Here is the video

ConorBobFinn13 · 09-12-2022 02:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975344#Comment_119975344

Thanks for all this man. You cleared it up. I should have expected she was going to do it tbh. I didn't turn my head because I have a side mirror on the bike. I saw the car approaching me alright but never in a million years thought they would have cut me off and did such a carless maneuver. Cork is dodgy enough place to cycle so be careful out there. About 5 minutes before this very incident I had another close call with a taxi driver nearly driving me off the road for some reason but that's for another day. Anyway, I learned my lesson. I think I messed up this thread too. I was answering 'yes' to most answers. New on boards.ie. I just wanted someone like yourself to point out the problems. Difficult to find on Google. Cheers

Furze99 · 09-12-2022 02:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975231#Comment_119975231

Feedback? You are/were mad to think that you could/ can just fly across that junction. Bonkers.

That said the driver must have seen you and was also reckless. But from now on, always slow down there, look over yer shoulder, be prepared to stop and proceed with caution.

ConorBobFinn13 · 09-12-2022 02:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975274#Comment_119975274

Yeah sorry that was me. Not sure how boards.ie worked. Sorry about that. But all good now. CramCycle helped me out.

hans aus dtschl · 09-12-2022 02:33PM

This specific road and junction have recently been resurfaced, using "sustainable infrastructure funding". This is TII jurisdiction (N27). In case anyone needs more proof that TII are incompetent and should not be allowed to be involved in sustainable infrastructure.

For the OP:

This junction is very dangerous. If you do use the "cycle infrastructure" here, be sure to cede priority at that junction for your own safety. I have personally made formal Part8/Section38 and other submissions about this junction more than once.

For clarity, the cycle infrastructure ceases to exist at the private entrance. It's an informational vacuum and a "fudge" to avoid inconveniencing motorists to any degree whatsoever. Cyclists do not have right of way across this private entrance. This is obviously against Irish road and Cycle infrastructure designs. If anyone has a collision here, be sure to make the Council party to any legal proceedings. Worth knowing that the same council and TII have literally just finished creating another one of these "fudged priority" death traps in Dunkettle as party of the multi-million euro Dunkettle Interchange Upgrade scheme.

As others have said:

That blue arrow is for motorists.
The driver should have stopped (a better motorist would have) but there is no clear direction for them to do so and by law they are not required to.
The cycle infrastructure here is worse than useless and is dangerous.

What I do when cycling here, and as others have suggested: take the lane instead. Uncomfortable as that may be. This "cycle infrastructure" is designed only to get you out of the way of motorists, it affords you no additional protection or comfort, and puts you in danger at junctions and private entrances.

hans aus dtschl · 09-12-2022 02:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119974964#Comment_119974964

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975010#Comment_119975010

It's not entirely the OP's fault. We know from hindsight that the car is coming, but the OP had no way of knowing that a car was coming from behind to make the turn. The OP assumed that the cycle infrastructure gave them priority across the private entrance (as it should have done, according to all design manuals). It's an easy mistake to make: to not realise that the infrastructure is putting you in harm's way.

The OP was going straight on, the car was turning. It's clear who SHOULD have been given priority in the design. But the design team deliberately abdicated responsibility at this entrance.

And what's the OP's alternative? To use this "cycle infrastructure" he OP must stop at every private entrance, and cede priority to anyone else on the road. In that circumstance the cycle infrastructure quickly becomes unusable and pointless. And it's for that reason many people here are saying the same thing: "don't use that cycle infrastructure, and if you do use it, make sure to stop at every entrance and side road".

Who has Priority here? Almost Fatal Accident

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