Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

It may as well be this thread as what else is being discussed on it...

First of all we need to remember that the figures for 2022 so far are not age or population increase adjusted. The actual excess is likely to be significantly lower because at present you are comparing raw 2022 figures with figures in part from 2016 (2016-2019 + 2021).

There's no evidence it is due to immune system weakening. Many kinds of viruses were suppressed by anti covid measures, these are now back in circulation. But there doesn't seem to be a spike in deaths related to non covid infectious diseases.

It is unlikely to be vaccine related as the variation across countries is not explicable in relation to the vaccine rates in the country.

If heart it is likely a combination of long covid after affects and \ or missed medical involvement.

If cancer it is likely to be missed medical involvement.

We need to remember as well that many vulnerable people took extreme precautions during covid. Restrictions are lifted. People are back living normally, going on holidays, pushing themselves etc ... some of the deaths we are seeing in 2022 are people who in other years may well have died in 2020 or 2021 from strokes, cardiac failures etc.

It was your own choice, based on our previous discussion, not to converse with me on topics such as this, which I thought was mutually beneficial and was happy to keep it that way.

I dismiss the notion that phenomenon of unexplained excess deaths is due to implausible causes such as heatwave or ageing and am very much against the ‘here is your explanation, now move on – nothing to see here’ approach to it. This is that kind of a simplistic and shallow thinking that got us into the endless list of ridiculous measures for dealing with covid over the last few years; measures that some would argue caused more harm than good.

Problem like this requires second level thinking and consideration of combinations, permutations and thinking in terms of probabilities. What you suggest as a cause for this is for sure far more plausible than other causes mentioned so far here. There is indeed research suggesting that early strains of the virus may have had such a harmful effect. The same ‘experts’ also say that this is highly unlikely to be the case with omicron now. On the other hand we have those ‘experts’ who claim that vaccines, especially mRNA, can have serious adverse effects and cause cardiovascular injuries, and describe the risk as significant. If we speak in terms of probabilities, to an objective eye, both causes seem equally likely/unlikely at the moment.

Personally, I think that there is a number of factors at play – one or both mentioned above, plus genetics and/or lifestyle etc. Engaging in an argument of whether it is infection or vaccines will not lead anywhere. It is not as clear cut and it is too soon for that. We can however dismiss a number of other standalone factors, as it is easy to disprove causal relationships between them and the observed phenomenon.

Why is 'experts' in quotes? Significant risk of vaccine causing cardiovascular effects? This is a claim without foundation.

If you are going to make such a claim and talk of probabilities, provide data or you are just spreading anti vax innuendo.

Why are you pretending they are the same 'experts'?

To talk of 'experts' in quotes without qualification is deliberate muddying of the waters, so spare us claims of 'an objective eye'.

Have you seen the difference between an excess mortality figure before and after it is age and population demographic adjusted? It is a significant difference.

It is not 'implausible'. It is an essential action taken in order to make comparisons across years.

Read the post that I was replying to to get the context. 🙄

Yes.

That was the outstanding takeaway.

Both were fairly fit and active.. Yes very old but very simplistic to say they were end of life.

Sure why bother about vaccinating or taking care of elderly relatives at all, if that is your thinking?

The point is that elderly people do not retain immunity, nor are they able to replicate antibodies themselves.

Hence the need for over 65s to get boosters that younger fitter people do not necessarily need.

That is why that age group turns up in hospital.

That is a mean put down to somebody trying to explain something to you,

And shows that you don't know how to listen when someone is decent enough to take the time to reply.

Yeh, carry on.

Not in the slightest. By their logic if one article in the entire world covered excess deaths my point was invalid. Its hairsplitting and being deliberately obtuse.

You didn't show anything. You "just asked a question". That doesn't prove the premise.

There is a link to minor myocarditis. Nothing to indicate a link to increased risk of cardiovascular issues causing death.

And to your point about - maybe the vaccine should have protected against covid induced heart issues. Well, we don't know. It could have made the difference between the person dying of covid and been left with long covid with a future higher risk of death.

The Guardian is one of the most read newspapers / websites in these parts. You said NOBODY was asking the questions. I easily disproved your claim with a few seconds googling. The similar BBC article has already been listed on the thread. These are major news sites and one of them was written by a public health expert. There is nothing obtuse about it, and it is utterly disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

Covid vaccine causing cardiac conditions like myocarditis and pericarditis after first and less after 2nd dose has been proven but is in tiny amounts compared to the damage done to all organs including the heart by Covid infection itself. This is an article about a more recent study showing the numbers are even smaller post booster dose.

Nobody is ignoring or hiding this. It is stated on the vaccine information and those at highest risk are advised to take it easy (eg no training) for a few days post vaccination

This is not a new phenomenon. Flu vaccines carry a similar risk but the Covid vaccines reach a much larger demographic so its effects are more noticeable.

There are many very well known and accredited studies on both sides. There are also articles which have been roundly debunked coming from antivax / CT sites which not only misrepresent the data but also the results. Many of these have been withdrawn.

On the point of odyssey's excellent posts ( a lot more patient than me!) he /she gives examples of studies which you dismissed out of hand.

Now I could easily produce many other studies and articles from everywhere and go to the trouble of posting them here, and have done before, but why when you and others are not even reading them without dismissng them out of hand.

At least bad2thebone had the grace to listen to what odyssey was saying.

@odyssey06 great posts!

I never said that at all. Yes age is the overwhelming factor in the lack of immunity , but all things being equal a booster could help. By 78% apparently against severe disease .

Vaccine effectiveness in older people wanes about 28 days after it has been given but is very effective against severe disease and death .

And yes the new bivalent vaccine is the best thing around now , I do agree with you, corcaigh ! 😁

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20220929/COVID-19-booster-shots-essential-for-maintaining-long-term-immunity-against-infection-in-older-adults.aspx

Edited to add link .

I'd thought better of you, ...antivax playbook, of course is not true, is better the study you linked based on a bunch of autopsies

The dose for children is 10 micrograms, as somebody else said, while the one for adults is 30: since they are supposed to take 2 doses plus booster, that makes exactly the amount of drug not recommended. But nevermind the numbers, let's vaccinate every child from something that doesn't affect them in the slightest with something that might permanently damage them, antivax playbook, page 9.

This is an attempt to discredit the vaccines with deliberate misinfornation.

A 30mg dose is one go is entirely different to 30mg distributed over months.

Its like saying max dose of paracetamol for children is one go is X. Then saying paracetamol is dangerous because you can exceed that with several doses in a day.

So no, you dont just get to drop antivax misinformation onto ths thread then hide behind a smokescreen like 'never mind the numbers'.

Was going to reply to this misinformation, but see you and astrofool have already set the record straight, thanks!

It just proves that the antivax playbook doesn't extend to basic infornation about how the vaccines work.

@darconio maybe read the actual up to date lleaflet before posting next time.

Still waiting for the Twindemic to kick off.

ICU holding steady at 11, slight uptick in hospital cases at 433.

Joseph A. Ladapo MD, PhD, State Surgeon General of Florida as of 7th October recommends against the COVID-19 mRNA vaccines for males ages 18-39 years old. This is on the back of the fact that “there is an 84% increase in the relative incidence of cardiac-related death among males 18-39 years old within 28 days following mRNA vaccination" and that "with a high level of global immunity to COVID-19, the benefit of vaccination is likely outweighed by this abnormally high risk of cardiac- related death among men in this age group.”

https://floridahealthcovid19.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/20221007-guidance-mrna-covid19-vaccines-doc.pdf

@astrofool , @odyssey06 , @Goldengirl I presume this fella and Florida Health Department must be yet another desperate loons pushing the anti-vax narrative, right? I mean they must be as we all know that vaccines are safe.

He’s been anti vax for a while. Ever since he’s gotten the job he has refused to order vaccines for the state, recommended against them. This has been going on for over a year.

Let me ask you this, why have the other 49 state surgeon generals not made the save recommendations as him? not like what he is saying is one day old. Like I said he’s been on this since he was appointed.

Here’s the study he’s on about if you want to read it. It is already being questioned.