How should married couples conduct their financial affairs?

Weesie · 17-09-2022 9:04pm #1

I am married 10 years & my husband has always refused to talk about finances. Until recently, I had no idea what he earned, what he spends, what he saves, what his pension entitlements are. However, I recently went to file a personal tax return & saw from his payroll details that he is earning twice my gross salary. He has always insisted on splitting everything 50/50 - childcare, mortgage, bills, property tax, ordering oil/gas (he will let us run dry, until I pay my 50%). I work full time & in addition to our split costs, I seem to always be the first to put my hand in my pocket for kids clothes, extracurricular activities, summer camps, the cleaner (which he was reluctant to get & has paid only once). I have also paid for all of the furniture, beds, soft furnishings, bed clothes, tvs etc. in our home. I'm not forced to do it; but if I didn't our home would be empty & look like student digs. We are both in our early 40s, with children under 10. In addition, I have also paid for the majority of Santa & birthday presents (for our kids & the parties they are invited to).

I am a public servant, so my pension (which isn't great, being the post 2013 Single Public Service Pension Scheme) is deducted at source, but I have no savings and quite literally not one cent left to myself at the end of every month. I buy my clothes in Pennies, use cheap creams/shampoos and don't really go out very often. Personally, I don't feel that this is right or fair. I'm in my early 40s, am educated to Masters level, I work really hard and have a gross annual income of €75,000+.

I have tried so many times to discuss this with my husband. He shuts down completely and either walks off or just say 'yea' and nothing changes. I have suggested counselling, sent emails, letters, texts - but nothing changes.

I am so hurt at this stage, that at times, I can't bear to be in the same room as him. I feel totally miserable and disrespected, yet he is living his best life - spending his money on his hobbies, pastimes, social life.

There is no question of spending money on a family holiday abroad or furnishings for the house. Those conversations go absolutely nowhere.

When we purchased our first home, we had to set up a joint account, but all he will put into this is 50% of the mortgage repayment, a few days before its due. The rest of the month, its either empty or overdrawn.

I really need advise as to what my rights are. I know this entire scenario sounds crazy... I'm not depressed and I don't have low self-esteem. I come from a loving 2-parent family, where my Dad was a compmete gent & prioritised his family. My parent's were so generous that they gave all of us money for our first homes, paid for our weddings, universities. Family was always the priority in my home growing up. The situation that I now find myself in seems to have evolved, as we have floated through the last decade, taking the good times as they came. I always thought things would change when we we married, had kids, bought a house together, matured, became more successful in our careers... but that has not happened.

My husband is an amazing father & my 2 kids adore him. But his disrespect and lack of trust in me has caused irreparable damage. Yet he seems to have no clue... & thinks all of this is normal. If I'm in bad form he makes references to my period, being tired or stress at work, almost turning his actions and their affect on our marriage back on me. He'll also bombard me with OTT, inappropriate affection to try keep me quiet and make the tension go away.

I really don't know what to do at this stage. Should I spend the rest of my life, with him in the driving seat and me losing myself bit by bit, for the sake of my kids? Deep down he actually is a nice guy, he loves his kids and I think he loves me. But it's like he's living in the 1950s and he believes that's the way life should be.

Any advice would be so greatly appreciated....

Jim_Hodge · 17-09-2022 9:19pm

As regards the relationship I don't know enough to comment but we always had a joint account that wages go in to and all expenditure comes out. It's just joint money. No mine and yours. Likewise, savings and investments, house deeds, etc are all joint. Its how we feel a marriage should work.

Weesie · 17-09-2022 9:23pm

Thank you. That's also how I was reared and what I want in my own life.

Wheety · 17-09-2022 9:26pm

Me and my wife both get paid into a joint account. Everything is paid from that, groceries, mortage, all bills, car costs like fuel and maintenance, tax, insurance. Basically all joint expenses are paid from it.

We each take a weekly allowance from the joint account too. This is quite a low amount as the joint account covers almost everything. Suppose it works as we're both WFH so lunch expenses aren't a big thing now. Lunches at home are covered with groceries.

We're very open about finances, as I think you should be in a marriage. We know what each other earns and savings etc.

What happens if your husband dies unexpectantly, would you know where to start looking at his assets?

Weesie · 17-09-2022 9:27pm

What do you mean? I seriously I'm a bad way and just seeking insight as to what's normal for other families in my position.

Jequ0n · 17-09-2022 9:30pm

Why wouldn’t he be behaving like this? You have been enabling it all along. I’d do the same for as long as I got away with it.

You don’t sound happy so maybe it’s time to get some backup (friends/ family) consider your options. Don’t do it on your own.

Mrs OBumble · 17-09-2022 9:33pm

You are being financially abused. Contact Women's Aid for advice.

Donald Trump · 17-09-2022 9:36pm

That's not living in the 1950's. Living in the 1950's would have been more like you staying at home and him out working, but you managing the household money.

It certainly seems like an odd set up. Given that you have kids (and presuming they are also his kids) then those kids would likely have affected your career options and your earning power today. That is another area where you appear to be contributing 100% and him 0%. He might not take that into consideration, but the Family Court would in the event of a separation/divorce and subsequent maintenance proceedings.

Beasty · 17-09-2022 9:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632129#Comment_119632129

The thread was moved (by another moderator). You had originally posted in the Site Feedback forum, but a mod has now moved it to the more relevant Relationship Issues forum

FintanMcluskey · 17-09-2022 9:44pm

Joint accounts where all money is pooled into are a death sentence for life and passion IMO.

A joint account where a set amount is paid into each month to cover mortgages and bills etc is all that's needed.

I don't know what my partner spends nor do I want too.

Some people also have diabolical money management skills, another reason to avoid joint accounts.

There is a gross annual income in the OPs house of €225,000 if my sums are correct, money should not be an issue, how the account becomes overdrawn each month is a bit odd

Strumms · 17-09-2022 9:53pm

the joint account for expenses is the way to go, put in proportionate to what you earn and then each have their own savings account ….

shalom · 17-09-2022 9:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632161#Comment_119632161

This. What your husband is doing is as bad as an alcoholic and a chronic one at that. It is called meanness. It is also a form of control. He knows what he is doing and the effect it has on you and the family. While he is aware of it, he is also in some sort of denial about the whole thing. Especially since he can walk away and let you to sort out what ever has to be sorted for the kids etc. I could go on more here about him, but it is you that is more important.

My first piece of advice, you can't and won't change him, but you can help yourself. I'm not going to advise you to leave him or anything like that. But adapt and other services have a lot of experience in these type of situations and can offer very good support and solutions without you having to leave your husband.

That would be my advice right now, phone them or make an appointment and they will help you. Sometimes when all of this is going on inside of your head it can make you feel mad and without any support or advice we can feel broken.

>mod snip<

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@shalom exchanging PMs, although well meaning, on the back of posts in PI is strictly against the Charter here. Please do not do it going forward.

HS

Jim_Hodge · 17-09-2022 9:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632212#Comment_119632212

In a marriage we found a joint account for all funds the only way to go. Trust and partnership. Rearing children and running a home are joint ventures. We spend what we want without needing to decide if it's appropriate to the joint account or an individual's account, or having to get approval. What one person earns compared to the other is immaterial in marriage.

Sunrise_Sunset · 17-09-2022 10:01pm

I know lots of married couples and some combine money and others don't. Maybe half and half, but that's a guess.

You are both high earners, and although he's earns significantly more, you are still in the high earner category in my view. Therefore I'd think you'd both have enough to split everything 50/50. He absolutely should be contributing at least 50% to ALL expenses, not just some. However, he's not obliged to contribute more than that. It might be nice if he did, but definitely not obliged to. I think it would be a different story if you were a low earner, I think in that case I'd be expecting him to pitch in more.

Weesie · 17-09-2022 10:02pm

Thanks for your feedback. It's mostly left empty, sometimes overdrawn when insurances, property tax come out. I have no additional resources, as we have quite a large mortgage €450k + and I cover any extras that our children need or want. I'm not willing to let them suffer & they attend swimming, irish dancing, basketball and also did a number of summer camps.

the_pen_turner · 17-09-2022 10:04pm

steve harvey (off the telly) is right . he says ever couple should have 4 accounts. a joint account for the day to day bills , an account for joint savings like holidays , revovtions etc, and 1 account each for their own interests.

your biggest issue here is that you were never in the loop of what he earned.

i think the split should be proportional . he earns twice what you do so he should pay more. thats fair

work out what the actual bills are and split it up from there

you mention bed liinen, furniture etc etc. i wonder what his opinion is on that. does he see that as you buying stuff thats not neaded. my father has a running joke with my mother that he will rush in and sit on the new chair or couch etc so he can say he used it before she changes it. front sitting room used for max 5 days a year but they have went through 6 couchs in 30 years

its hard to be sympathetic to someone on 75k a year with a husband that insists on paying half of all the bills

Sunrise_Sunset · 17-09-2022 10:09pm

You need to write down all household expenses for a couple of months and track exactly how much he is contributing. Once you take into account all the extra spending on the kids etc that you're doing, at least you can go to him then and show it to him, and say he needs to contribute 50% to these expenses, in addition to the rest of the bills. With both of you being high earners, I don't think it's fair to expect him to pay more than that.

Weesie · 17-09-2022 10:16pm

Thanks for your feedback and I realise I'm earning a really good salary. I studied for 8 years to get my qualifications & worked very hard to be where I am. That's why I find it very difficult to have no capacity for saving or to have no opportunity for any form of personal spending. I would do anything for my kids... But they have 2 parents & as I said earlier, in spite of my earnings, I am on the breadline every single month.

Donald Trump · 17-09-2022 10:21pm

Cut the cleaner out of your expenses. And tell him it's his job now to do the cleaning seeing as how you are running around after the kids. You might find more agreement with the concept of getting a cleaner in soon enough

Deeec · 17-09-2022 10:22pm

Your situation is not normal at all. You are a married couple yet he still behaves financially like he's single.

My husband and I have a joint account and both our salaries are paid into it. We trust each other and are open about our finances. That's what marriage is about. We don't begrudge each other personal expenditure either. It works well for us.

The fact that you are married so long and you didn't know anything about his finances is very concerning. If he is so hidden about this what else is he hiding.

You and your children are suffering due to his selfishness. I agree with others in that this is a form of control and abuse.

...Ghost... · 17-09-2022 10:31pm

Just because you're not spending the money directly on yourself, doesn't mean you're not spending recklessly. A lot can be unnecessarily spent on the kids. They don't need the best of everything. You'll just spoil them. Better they have a mother not stressed about money.

Write down EVERYTHING you spend money on for a couple of months and then see where it's going. It does sound like your husband is an @sshole though. Be sure he is covering the essentials at 50%

Jim_Hodge · 17-09-2022 10:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632358#Comment_119632358

If he's earning double what she is, and there isn't a joint account for everything, then he should be contributing 66% to the joint expenses.

SwimClub · 17-09-2022 10:40pm

Tell him you've done a lot of soul searching and you're going to quit your job and stay home full-time and look after the kids and the house

There is no point in you working because you spend all your time away from home and have nothing to show for it at the end of the month, it's no life.

Make it believable, see what he says......

Either this is what he wanted all along or it might shock him into adjusting the finances. One way to find out!

Dial Hard · 17-09-2022 10:41pm

Is there any way the original responses to the thread from when it was posted in Feedback can be restored? Because the OP got some very good advice there that still stands.

mojesius · 17-09-2022 10:42pm

Your husband sounds like a right scab to be honest. I don't understand why anyone would hide their earnings from their spouse.

Are you saying he earns 150k per annum gross and won't spend on a holiday abroad for his family? What's he spending his money on?

If he won't change, you need to change things for your own sanity and financial well being. Bring him to buy the kids Xmas presents/things needed for the house etc. Don't enable his behaviour anymore by stepping up to cover for his stingyness

WildWater · 17-09-2022 10:43pm

Personally, I find that appalling and I couldn’t live like that. Nor would I want to live like that. We all know marriage is complex, but at the most basic level it is about respect. Without respect there is nothing. I think disrespect is like a cancer to relationships. It undermines everything. You used the word ‘disrespect’ yourself. It’s just my opinion, but the situation you find yourself in (have grown into?) is fundamentally based on disrespect. This isn’t a finance issue, it is a respect issue. The big question for both of you is can you move your relationship (back?) to one that is founded on respect. If you can, then you have a chance at resolving your financial and I guess other issues.

thegame983 · 17-09-2022 10:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632374#Comment_119632374

That is nonsense. This isn't some CEO who married a till-girl. They are both well paid. He may well be a prick and worth leaving, but the notion that he is obliged to pay more than 50% is wrong.

growleaves · 17-09-2022 10:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632329#Comment_119632329

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632385#Comment_119632385

Shocking him with ultimatums won't work. Terrible advice.

growleaves · 17-09-2022 10:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632161#Comment_119632161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632335#Comment_119632335

If you do decide to define yourself as an abuse victim you're about halfway to divorce I'd say so think long and hard about this one.

...Ghost... · 17-09-2022 10:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632374#Comment_119632374

Everyone couple has their own arrangement. In my opinion, if both are earning enough as individuals to cover half of essential household expenses, then they should only be paying their fair share, which is 50%. Just because one earns twice than the other, doesn't mean they should have to pay more. The higher earner has most likely worked very hard to be in that position and can choose to pay more, but shouldn't be obliged to. I'd pay more if I earned more, but that shouldn't be expected in this world of equality. What if the OPs hubby decided to go jobshare and earned less than her? Should he pay half, or less than half because he now earns less?

Weesie · 17-09-2022 10:52pm

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. Our kids are 5 & 8 and we've never been on a family holiday abroad.

SwimClub · 17-09-2022 10:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632406#Comment_119632406

It sounds like if he coughed up his 50% of all of the family costs the issue would be resolved.

...Ghost... · 17-09-2022 11:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632428#Comment_119632428

He should, but then again, some people manage to spend every cent they have regardless of their income. The OP could well be one of those people which is why I suggested recording everything she buys. Partners shouldn't be encouraged to supplement poor spending habits.

Weesie · 17-09-2022 11:02pm

All I want is to be a team. I don't care about who earns less or more, if I earned more, I would still think a joint pool is what's fair. In regards to which works more or harder. We both work very hard. In terms of qualifications, I have a higher level of education & supported him when he was climbing the career ladder. I am a public servant, so my circumstances are different. I'll never earn as much as somebody in the corporate world, but I am on a professional incremental salary scale. So I don't get why he doesn't see the potential in me or deems me as a separate entity.

o1s1n · 17-09-2022 11:04pm

The amount of people in this thread where both incomes go into a joint account is crazy.

Yes, have a joint account that the bills and mortgage come out of.

But both of you have your own account you are paid into.

Have a monthly budget to figure out what your bills/family food shops come to, both send that to the joint account each month and that's that. Everything else you earn is yours.

The idea of adults getting some kind of allowance is laughable.

gameoverdude · 17-09-2022 11:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632385#Comment_119632385

What is the point in this? Seriously?

Make it believable? Disgusting.

Op, the person who earns more in a relationship should pay more (taking into consideration after tax earnings).

Seperate accounts for fun money.

RustyMam · 17-09-2022 11:12pm

Hi Weesie,

I know you posted re how couples managed their finances and, as you'll have seen from the responses so far, people have so many different approaches.

What jumps out at me from your message is that you aren't happy. And that's something you can start looking at now. Can I suggest that you take steps to get a good counsellor? And yes I know you don't think you have the time or money. (I've made the same arguments in the past !). But you need to make time with an independent qualified professional that will help you figure out what exactly your red line issues are and a plan on how to address them.

It's the best money and time I have ever spent.

FintanMcluskey · 17-09-2022 11:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632374#Comment_119632374

Can't understand that logic.

It should be 50-50.

Just because someone has worked themselves into a position where they earn €150,000 a year doesn't mean they need to hand any more than they should over.

Certainly so if the other partner is questionably spending money.

Someone on €75,000 gross, paying half a mortgage shouldn't be so broke regardless what hobbies the children have.

Kalimah · 17-09-2022 11:13pm

That’s incredibly sad. Our joint income in the 2010s was about 65k. We managed a family holiday with 4 kids, usually to a campsite in France or Italy. I think your husband is being unbelievably unfair to you and your kids.

When I was a kid in the 70s quite a few of the men I knew lived the life of a single man while enjoying the benefits of marriage ie they kept most of their salaries for their own benefit. The wives managed as best they could. Disgraceful situation.

Time to tell your husband to shape or ship out. You’ve put up with it long enough.

Deeec · 17-09-2022 11:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632442#Comment_119632442

Do you know if he is saving a large amount or is he spending everything?

If he is saving for the kids futures or retirement at least maybe there is some justification. But if he is spending large amounts on himself selfishly it's worrying.

Damien360 · 17-09-2022 11:20pm

Reading all these comments makes me think I’m the odd one here.

We have one account and everything goes into it. My wife had to stop working once kid number 2 arrived as we couldn’t afford the childcare. My earnings have paid for everything as it’s a partnership. I don’t check and it’s a very ordinary wage.

We talk about our finances and have equal access to the account to see comings and goings. Again, we don’t generally check although it has got a bit low at times and we had to curb spending to recover. She has spent freely, as do I. Common sense is the control.

She has only just got back to work as the kids are now teenagers. We save for one big holiday a year, if you consider a family holiday for a week in Lanzarote a big holiday ! We do.

If you can’t trust the person you sleep beside every night, it is not a marriage. It’s not perfect but not arguing about money is a godsend.

Donald Trump · 17-09-2022 11:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632409#Comment_119632409

Methinks you need to look up the meaning of word "ultimatum".

If she is paying for the cleaner, then stop getting the cleaner. But the cleaning should be his responsibility too! So let him do it.

Deeec · 17-09-2022 11:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632506#Comment_119632506

Whats your solution when he couldn't be arsed doing the cleaning.

the_pen_turner · 17-09-2022 11:34pm

im sorry i dont understand how you can be broke. you as a couple have a combined income of 225k a year😲. thats roughly 135 k a year after tax.

either you are spending well above your means or you are gettting screwed somewhere. how can you not afford a holiday.

either way you need some kind of finantial counciler to sit down and see whats happening

Donald Trump · 17-09-2022 11:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632513#Comment_119632513

Let the place go to sh1te. Why would she keep enabling him if he isn't going to contribute. She can clean it up later after she gets rid of him and keeps the house.

LaLa2004 · 17-09-2022 11:39pm

Hi Weesie. Sorry to hear you are living this miserable life. Do you think he will change? Please get some help for yourself, maybe some counseling. This is a form of abuse as you are an unpaid servant in your house. Consider contacting Women's Aid. Don't waste any more years of your life on him. Speaking from experience....

growleaves · 17-09-2022 11:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632518#Comment_119632518

😕🤔

StupidLikeAFox · 17-09-2022 11:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632469#Comment_119632469

I really don't understand your logic "it should be 50/50" - no it shouldn't. Its a family, if you go 50/50 financially then are you not making financial decisions on what the family can afford, you are making decisions on what the lowest earner can afford, and giving the higher earner extra fun money.

In a family unit this is completely unfair as there there are many important unpaid tasks and sacrifices (typically on the mother's side) needed to raise the family.

One_More_Mile · 18-09-2022 12:21am

He is making sure he has enough to start again if the marriage breaks down. And is right If ye split up he will be sleeping in tent.

babyducklings1 · 18-09-2022 1:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632414#Comment_119632414

The higher earner should pay more it’s the decent thing to do, a relationship is a partnership and should be built on trust and love and supporting each other.

893bet · 18-09-2022 1:34am

Lots of strange logic in this thread.

I pay 90 percent of the expenses in our house. Lucky enough to be able to afford to do maybe my perspective would be different if I couldn’t afford to pay the way. I work damn **** hard though which my wife facilitates (but sometimes does realise or appreciate that fact). Sure, I could work less and spend a little more time at home. But also when a child decides the want to do a masters that cost 50k or to buy a house and needs a leg up. I will be there. I also remember 10 years ago when my wife carried more of the can as I couldn’t afford it.

To the OP…..from your perspective does he “waste” excessive amount of money on what you consider frivolous activities? Or if needed that a child needed surgery in the US on Tuesday that he would be able to shell out for it?

Its an interesting thread. How measured marriages are for a lot of people.

How should married couples conduct their financial affairs?

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