Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

@peter kern 🙂

”my main issue is not with portugal but with the eu as they have set no proper time frame when thos cards have to be issuesd .”

Incorrect.

The timeframe agreed between the UK and the EU, for EU27 to implement WA provisions as those related to resident Brits, was the transition period 01 February to 31 December 2020.

Most EU states got started in Spring 2020 shortly after the WA was agreed, rolled out enlistment programs by Summer or early Autumn 2020 with that 31 December deadline, and IIRC very many ended up extending the enrolment into 2021 due to the pandemic.

“For travelling it is actually an eu issue that can affects eu citizen in the same way that is does affect those uk people.”

There is no issue with travelling intra-EU for Brits with rights acquired under the WA. No Schengen passport stamp for them.

However there are plenty of issues for Brits with rights acquired under the WA, with moving to live and/or work in an EU state, other than the EU state which granted those WA rights in the first place.

That is because those rights acquired under the WA are country-bound (3rd country national immigration law, as modified to grant these WA rights to resident Brits turned 3rd country nationals, is national only, it is not a pooled competence/an EU prerogative).

Brits with rights acquired under the WA are not EU citizens, and have lost their FoM just the same as all the other Brits.

They can continue to live in the EU country in which they were resident up to 31 December 2020, like another EU citizen.

They can’t move to and/or work in another EU country, they’d have to apply for a working visa. Like my Mrs had to, even though fully-WA rights-carded in Lux, for commuting to teach a few hours a week in Belgium next door (20 miles as the crow flies).

”As far as i am concerned ,in the guardian article , the uk people mentioned , asked for nothing that was not granted to them by the withdrawal rights , it has nothing to do with british exceptionalism or entitlement issues, so i dont see the reason to include that into this issue. we have discussed this issue 1000 times and agreed on that almost as often as we agreed 1000 times FPTP is not good,

it also has nothing to do with brexit means brexit .... that a lot of people have used in this context . 

its about withdrawal agreement rights are withdrawal agreement rights regardless if it is an uk or an eu issue .”

And they got those rights granted to them.

However for these few mentioned in that article (to the extent that their grievances are genuine), and many other Brits in other EU member states, and 200,000 EU27 in the UK, the issue arises from imperfect implementation.

And in that respect, yes, it has everything to do with ‘Brexit means Brexit’:

first, through the decision to Brexit at all;

second, through the choice of Brexit pursued by the UK (hard, without SM membership & therefore necessarily without FoM);

third, through the pacing followed by the UK (everything at the last second, every time, with little to no practical engagement with the EU ahead).

Rights are ‘withdrawal agreement’ rights indeed, but their implementation varies according to the immigration law of each EU27 member state, likewise that of the UK. A most telling example is actually Ireland, with the CTA, wildly at odds with e.g. France or Spain…or Portugal indeed. And there is no ‘pre-settled’ status practiced anywhere in the EU27 that I’m aware of, unlike in the UK, still, for those 200,000 EU27 I mentioned.

They are finding out through this cost of living crisis. Gone are the days of pointing a gunboat at the natives to force them to sell their wares to you for a pittance.

Make sure to take in Les Invalides, home to Napoleon's tomb and the Musee de l'Armee.

Another unfortunate affect of Brexit

I believe Dublin Zoo mentioned this a while back as well.

It is probably only the tip of the iceberg regarding scientific collaboration. Already there have been reports of grants being cancelled for UK scientist.

There is no doubt that the long term affect will be to drive a wedge between the disparate scientific communities as collaboration diminishes. Sad because Irish scientific community ( and I worked in it) benefited a lot from working with colleagues in UK.

Easy for the EU is to battle that case. Inclusion in Horizon etc was part of the WA, which the UK have not implemented on their side. SO by taking this case the UK will be asked why they haven't implemented the NIP, and asked to give a time frame of when it will be implemented. If they can't give that then it would be unlikely that a court would decide that the EU should adhere completely to the agreement whilst the other party refuses to hold up their side.

TBH, this actually suits the EU. But I don't think the Uk actually thinks it can win. This is just to be seen to be doing something, yet again painting the EU as the enemy, as if the UK were not at fault at all. It sells very well in Brexit Britain.

The sad part is the fact that the UK universities that benefited from the Horizon programme were actually very efficient at utilising the money to produce results, far more so than many EU institutions, its a sad day when science is sacrificed on the altar of jingoism.

The EU made it very clear, from the very start, that any TCA was dependent on a WA, of which NI was an essential part. They will easily argue that the TCA doesn't come into effect until the WA is properly implemented so it is in fact the UK that is holding things up.

But as I mentioned, it really doesn't matter. This is just more flag waving by the UK, the government trying to appear strong and taking on the enemy that is the EU.

It buys them time. You watch, next time the Horizon mess is brought up the government spokesperson or minister will point to 'ongoing legal case taken against the EU' as an excuse to avoid actually doing something that might actually be of benefit to the scientific community in the UK. Rather than front up and explain what the plan is for future scientific advancement in the UK, they will simply blame the EU.

It should be, but it isn't so far. Clearly the UK are not implementing the NIP, which is part of the WA. But the trade agreement is still being adhered to.

I am not too sure if it is so clear cut. As they are two separate legal agreements/international treaties. Is there a clear legal provision that the TCA falls if the WA is not implemented? If there is I would like to see the Commission notify its' intention to do so.

I felt this was relevant to where things stand:

The EU team opted to go for sequencing during the exit negotiations, following advice, including some from Irish officials, i.e. WA had to be finalized before details of any Trade agreement would be discussed in detail - probably down to a lack of trust, especially on agreeing, and implementing, details on Northern Ireland. This was complained about loudly by Frost and others at the time and later....part of his "best deal ever"/they "forced us to sign" policy

What have the EU lost? Nothing.

Continued free access to the UK market. For which they have given nothing in return.

But they have the power to stop UK exports at pretty much anytime they like.

Far from UK taking back control, the EU now has control without having to worry about the UK scuppered its plans in the future.

What could have been a major event and possibly fatal blow to the entire EU project has instead worked out relatively well for the EU.

The UK, on the other hand, is a dumpster fire. They have nothing but negatives to show for the last six years, with still no even a hint of a positive in the future.

It is not the EU job to educate the UK public, and any attempt to do so would only inflame the situation.

There is a growing realisation in the UK that Brexit is bad. The leas Brexiteer, the only one who could get it done, has shown that even with an 80 seat majority, with the will of the public behind him, that even Johnson couldn't make Brexit look good.

No need for the EU to do anything. The longer it goes on the worse it gets for the UK. And both sides know that.

When is "it" coming?