Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

peter kern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119446496#Comment_119446496

ok i see we are turning passive agressive now . and using punctuation to defuse , i am sorry that i failed to see that dyslexic people are not allowed to post here.

if you dont understand what i write please ask no problem here . but i would hope , that after i had pointed out about 5 times that those people have been residents in portugal before brexit , it is ok , to point out that you actually read the article and try to understand this point of the article . before going on to lecture me about what types of brexit could have prevent the problems i have not even talked about.

as for your 2nd point i have made the argument that as of march 2022 portugal could issue a residency card within 2 weeks but for the uk residents they only have a paper document 2 years later , and iam not surprised form past experience that this causes issues , and it does not surprise me that the eu is monitoring the situation. if they did nothing wrong the eu would not monitor situation . That would be my naive argument . and i am happy for you to refute that argument.

if you allow me , could we go back to my initial point , that we are very fast to complain about everything the uk is doing wrong , but when an article speaks of issues for uk people,to have their rights applied in the eu area , we think thats not a an issue and make flimsy arguments suggesting every civil servant in portugal is a fireman , or that an issue that goes on for 2 years issue is a summer vacation issue . covid can obviously be an issue, but again they can issues those cards within 2 weeks if they want.

both sides should be held accountable to best practise , and i dont think it is a good argument that we can treat those people bellow best practise level, because their government is acting in bad faith.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119447056#Comment_119447056

Spare me the victimhood crap. You're happy to sneer at and condescend to people here. You are not the victim.

I'm not buying the both sides argument. The Portuguese government hasn't spent years gaslighting its own citizens and residents, negotiating in bad faith or using human beings as bargaining chips for short term political gains. The individuals involved aren't being ejected.

If you've evidence that the Portuguese government is acting deliberately and malevolently, please present it. Frankly, I don't know what you're expecting contributors to a dwindling Irish website to do about it.

peter kern

your evidence for not buying the arguemnt is this

 The Portuguese government hasn't spent years gaslighting its own citizens and residents, negotiating in bad faith or using human beings as bargaining chips for short term political gains.

can i ask what point are you making

they are not ejected

correct , but according to the article they face issues to change jobs , have some issues access the health system . and experience difficulties in travelling.

if you have evidence that the guardian article is fabricated dont hesitate to share them .

johnnyskeleton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119445089#Comment_119445089

Its pretty bad that Portugal has chosen to breach the agreement in a specific and limited way. However, I guess the rules just arent working for them, and so they will probably have to pass an "Internal Permits" bill unilaterally to fix it for themselves.

At the very least they should prospose to do that and see what the British response is.

peter kern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119445580#Comment_119445580

being married to a non eu citizen i have 10 years of experience with residency cards and even with this card its often not a pleasure to travel in the eu . and i have also seen the issues if you have an official government paper rather than a card at other passport controls, really not good

so i guess thats why i can feel for them.

ambro25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119447538#Comment_119447538

Well, it’s good that you can feel for them.

But your alleged life experience doesn’t stack up with the strength of your go at Portugal in here, about issuing paper certs over cards and teething problems of their immigration system adaptation, relative to what the UK has done to the EU26 in an identical context, never mind causing the situation in the first place (…and the less said about the hostile environment that preceded all that, the better).

I might lend you that little bit more credence, if and when you demonstrate similar levels of empathy about EUinUK.

Until then, all I’ve seen and am still seeing, is just more exceptionalist partisanship against the ‘side’ onto which Brexit, its problems and its costs were foisted without a word or thought.

The UK vacated its seat at the European table and asked to be treated as a 3rd party country, save for a handful of nationals previously in residence here and there. EU member states obliged and adapted their respective immigration systems. There were delays here and there’s still the odd snafu there. Show me an immigration system, established last year or 20 years ago irrespective, with people who don’t fall through procedural cracks.

After that, if what grinds you most, is that it’s Brits who are falling through system cracks in Portugal (or wherever else), then back to the exceptionalist partisanship point above, because I ran out of tiny violins for them about 5 years ago.

In Portugal, as in <wherever else> in the EU, they’re immigrants, no differently to any other non-native, but with more or less rights than immigrants of other countries, depending on their date of arrival in-country. That’s it.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119447273#Comment_119447273

So you have nothing to show that the Portuguese government is acting in bad faith. Thanks for confirming.

FraserburghFreddie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119447789#Comment_119447789

Many posters here are regularly unable to back up their claims.It only becomes an issue when it's a British or pro British poster.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448071#Comment_119448071

Ancapailldorcha is pro British.

retalivity

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448071#Comment_119448071

"It only becomes an issue when its a Brexit or pro-Brexit poster" - fixed it for you. How's the 'sunlit uplands' and many, many findings of the ministry of Brexit benefits going?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448104#Comment_119448104

Well apparently now according to the Tories Brexit didn't "get done" by Johnson the man they all recently praised for "getting Brexit done". So we won't see the sunny uplands until Truss or Sunak and his Brexit delivery team actually "get Brexit done"

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448085#Comment_119448085

What? I'm Irish.

FraserburghFreddie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448104#Comment_119448104

Hilarious that you revert to the same tired old 'must be a brexiteer,sunny uplands etc,etc..' default position popular amongst the majority of posters here

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448182#Comment_119448182

Well being Irish and pro-British aren't mutually exclusive. Though I'm not sure what exactly pro-British means in this context.

joe40

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119445617#Comment_119445617

Absolutely, and that is a reciprocal agreement, UK citizens have the same rights here.

British politics and media is a bit of a mystery to me. The current government are abhorrent, large sections of the media are the same, but on an individual level English people that I know are all great.

My daughter is considering going to College in England and I don't really know the best advice to give. Politically the country looks like a basket case, but as a potential student, first years are guaranteed on campus accomodation, the course structure looks good, and engagement from the college is really good. Waiting from late LC results etc.

What is the real England like?

ambro25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448071#Comment_119448071

The issue is rarely that claims of one side or the other in this debate can or cannot be backed up.

The issue is the recurring lack of objectivity and balance, historically more pronounced with the Leave/Brexiter side, because Brexit is an ideological construct that cannot get backed up with any rational facts or logic, moreover as there still is not consensus on what form it should have taken and for what purposes 2 years after the fact.

It’s a political square that can never be rounded with socio-economic measures, because the UK does not exist in a geopolitical and trading vacuum, any more than any other country does (bar perhaps North Korea).

Sam Russell

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/aug/09/woman-who-came-to-uk-as-a-baby-45-years-ago-fighting-for-right-to-work

So it is not just the Portuguese who are making life difficult for immigrants.

We have heard of the Windrush Generation - West Indians who were brought to the UK in the 1950s and 1060s who have been denied rights to stay in the UK some 60 or 70 years after having lived in the UK since arriving.

Now we have a Spanish immigrant denied rights by the UK Gov.

So uh can Ireland give someone like her a passport instead of all these Brexiteers?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448228#Comment_119448228

I know. My Ottoman Empire-obsessed aunt here in London voted for it. I'm just wondering what that means on this thread.

Leroy42

I don't agree that Portugal is making life difficult, certainly not part of some plan to get at the UK. At most this seems like a bureaucratic nightmare, where enough resources or desire maybe, just are not being applied to sort of an issue that is of course incredibly important to those that are directly affected but of little overall importance.

My reading of the article and the situation is this has nothing to do with 'Brexit', although of course, Brexit is the root cause of the need to implement a change. There are no doubt countless examples of other nationalities and even locals being held up by lack of attention. We have passport delays over here, for example, I don't think that is some plan to avoid giving Irish people passports but rather a lack of planning and resources and desire to remedy the problem.

Throughout this entire process, it seems the UK want to apply the line that everything is done in part at least to get back at them. Take for example the recent delays at Dover. The problem was exacerbated by a number of French officials being delayed starting. It was implied, certainly by MP's, that this was somehow a dig at the UK, getting back at the UK for daring to Brexit. More likely it was just a missed train or something far more mundane.

ambro25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448269#Comment_119448269

Of course it’s not just the Portuguese. Nor the British, for that matter.

Media (in the anglosphere, mostly the Guardian and Bylines, as rightwing media has long and studiously avoided reporting such instances casting a pall on ‘Brexit’) is positively littered with such anecdotes of Brexit-related hardship for the last 3-4 years, as ever more people on both sides of the nationality divide got pushed, shoved, used and trammelled by politicians, untrained immigration officers, ignorant workers, maladjusted systems, faulty procedures, ill-thought policies <…>

Because who do these bruised people vote for, eh? Do (can) they even vote?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448228#Comment_119448228

I'm pro British but also pro Scottish independence. And if it ever happened i'de just be pro English and pro Scottish. I'm also pro united Ireland.

What I'm not is pro monarchy, Brexit or Tory which to some posters here who don't actually understand Britain means anti British.

ambro25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448308#Comment_119448308

I think that what being ‘pro British’ means in Brexit discussions is, ironically, like Theresa May’s famous definition of Brexit: “pro British means pro British”

Because to anyone who would self-identify as such, it must encapsulate a personal set of beliefs and understanding of the expression, that slots somewhere within the whole spectrum of ‘ultra-far-right-SS-tattooed-nationalist to raw-fillet-beef-red-communist-patriot’ (using old money political markers 😆)

I’m pro British pretty much in the sense of breezy1985 above. Save where the British monarchy is concerned, as I don’t actually or particularly care about it.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448446#Comment_119448446

That's fair enough. On the monarchy, I was a tepid monarchist until the Prince Andrew stuff came to light. Now, I'd happily watch the odious institution burn, metaphorically speaking. I do enjoy the ceremonial trappings like the Horse Guards but it's not worth it. The monarchy, the unelected upper house in its current form, the adversarial political culture here and the poisonous voting system all need to go.

I'm actually off to Paris this weekend for the first time. It'll be interesting to compare and contrast it with London. I'm particularly looking forward to seeing some of the Napoleonic stuff. It gets me that France went from Absolutist rule under Louis XIV to revolutionary republic to Empire under Napoleon to Kingdom under the Burbons to a second Empire under a Third Napoleon.

I love the UK. It's sad to see such an ancient system of government be destroyed by cultural and economic parasites but here we are.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119447538#Comment_119447538

A non-EU citizen is always going to be treated differently crossing an EU border than an EU citizen is. How could it be otherwise?

If they're bothered by it they can always apply for naturalization.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448509#Comment_119448509

You will see in Paris that you can lose the monarchy and keep the horse guards.

I always got this "good for tourism" thing from closet monarchists but Versailles is packed to the brim with tourists regardless of whether the monarch still has head attached to shoulders.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448539#Comment_119448539

That's a really good point. Buckingham palace will always Buckingham palace regardless of who the sovereign is or if the UK removes the office altogether.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448182#Comment_119448182

I think they meant in the sense that you want what's best for Britain / UK as that's what's best for us in the long run, too

Problem is the British are still mostly very far away from realising what's good for 'em, and their government has burnt too many bridges even if they suddenly did want to come crawling back.

Even with Britain out of EU/SM, a massive recession there is not good news for us economically and will have an effect here and particularly in NI. So with Brexit, everyone's a loser.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448283#Comment_119448283

Joking aside, moving her family to Ireland might be the best option...

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448567#Comment_119448567

I think that getting rid of the Monarchy (after current one passes on from it either by abdication or otherwise) would be brilliant for tourism.

Think of all those Royal Places that could be used for tourist visits, or even turn some into hotels and charge Royal ransom for the overnight stay in the royal bed. Buck house would be thronged. Could even get Madame Tussauds to put a few wax dummies in appropriate places. Would be a real earner for the nation, while portraying past glories.

Perhaps the guards outside could be replaced by wax effigies - no-one would notice the difference since they have to stand so still.

The French portray their past glories so well that they have no difficulty of marrying past monarchy with their many republics. They are up to the fifth one (at the time of writing).