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Chennai Olympiad

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  • Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭eclipsechaser


    If Conor wants to win the gold medal, he has to play 8 games. He's currently played 7.

    I hate to say it but wouldn't he be best off sitting out the next round (or two), hoping for an easier opponent to beat to pick up the medal? It's not an easy position to be in given how well the team are doing.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,180 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    I don't think you can get a norm with 8 games at the Olympiad though?


    6.5/9 - ie two defeats - will get a norm if his opponents' rating stays high enough, and playing Italy will do it.


    So might depend on which you want - medal or norm. I guess the chance of a medal comes along less frequently.



  • Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭eclipsechaser


    If I were Conor, I'd be a lot more interested in a gold medal than a norm. Plenty of opportunities for a GM norm. Not so many opportunities for a board 2 gold.

    Which would most people here value more highly? Ireland coming 25th at the Olympiad and no medals or Ireland coming 50th and a Board 2 gold medal?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,180 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    I suppose you need to mitigate against coming back with neither.

    He needs 1/1 for a gold medal, and against at least 2415 to keep his performance up (given no margin for error really). But he needs 0/2 for a norm. So he has to play either round 9 or 10 - probably whichever gives white - and aim for a win, but leave the safety net of playing round 9 to seal his norm.

    But I guess as with the Women's team titles, it'll all be discussed at team level - but there has to be additional pressure on the next game of course



  • Registered Users Posts: 285 ✭✭checknraise


    Conor has his GM norm in the bag but the rest of his teammates are playing for norms.

    Tarun definitely has a chance of a GM norm even if he loses tomorrow and Tom can get an IM norm.

    I think Conor will play tomorrow on 2 as he is due black and we have a realistic chance of beating Italy with everyone playing as well as they are. Conor is already assured of having one of if not the best Irish performances at an Olympiad.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    That was an absolutely outstanding result to hammer Austria like that, everything went perfectly to plan.



  • Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭spidersweb


    Correct about the rule 8.1.3

    As regards the story of player A and player B? Wrong!

    What actually happened is as follows:

    Born of frustration that what had seemed like a winning endgame was proving to be incredibly difficult for player A to win it. Player A at a tense stage in the game commented/complained to player B directly (breaking fide rules rules of chess in doing so) that he (player B) had to record his moves and that according to player A was not doing so (incorrect for the reason you made reference to-rule 8.1.3).

    In serious Fide rated events players should go to the arbiter first when there is any potential dispute or complaint. Players who know each other well may not bother to do so and that will vary depending on mood or any number of things.

    Which incidentally makes the “SamShank Redemption” thing astounding and farcical. Imagine indeed if he just recorded the move played by his opponent first and only them moved?

    As he had 2 minutes versus 30 seconds, he had plenty of time and would have had to record the move played anyway as soon as he made his move. Whereas, we know what happened!

    There are different schools of thought on this generally and some people (Nigel Short for example) strongly feel that it is best practice and etiquette to always record your opponents move first before playing your move.

    While others say this is not needed and not a problem because there are many cases in which there is nothing to think about in replying and why not get the 30 seconds now and leave it to the opponent to think about his next move, in his own time. The recording of the move being complete when both players have each played their own move. Anyway I digress!

    Player B then went to the arbiter to ask him to speak with player A and explain the rules to player A and perhaps also gently caution him not to disturb his opponent again!

    This was done quickly and without rancor and was indeed a storm in a teacup, slight annoying disruption to the flow of the game. A mad time scramble occurred and in a very long game player B blundered in a messy endgame and missed a clear draw, with player A winning and complimenting player B after the game for what he thought was incredible tenacity and resourcefulness.

    Whereas player B had assumed he was lost very early on in the endgame and happy to have made a fight of it and thinking he might only have missed something at the height of the time scramble (move eighty something I think) and only learned of this indeed being the case well after the game, but had assumed he had been lost for so long. In fact it was a pretty crap game by player B from the opening and never deserved much from the game. Much worse and lost for so much of the game.

    It was the 2011 Irish Ch which player A won outright! They both won the Irish ch the following year jointly and player B won the Irish in 2013 outright for the last time (probably ever).

    The truth and facts are a lot harder to pump out than inaccuracies and half truths, errors, misconceptions and myths though.

    Usually best when you can get the facts from the horses mouth, so to speak, but facts get in the way of peoples narratives and notions sometimes and thus are inconvenient and even messy.

    Don’t believe everything you read in the newspapers is what I was told as a child, and in the age of the “interwebs” this was never more true.

    Which is not to deny there is plenty of useful information at our finger tips too, Just also a lot of merit from actually checking with people who were there , bought the T Shirt, so to speak etc etc.

    Post edited by spidersweb on


  • Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭spidersweb


    It should be pretty obvious that Conor should be playing on board 2 for the match against Italy as Ireland have Black on 1 and White on even numbers. One of the advantages of why it was always the correct thing to have Baburin on 1 was to give the option to switch as and when it was needed for whomever was the board two player.

    Here there being 3 “up and coming players” – more like well established among the top Irish players- were all liable to potentially performing well or very well, notwithstanding that there also always a chance of a bad performance for such inexperienced players in the context of Olympiads.

    Here we have the wonderful extreme case of Conor performing exceptionally well and rediscovering the form he has had during his previous purple patches. Overcoming more recent mediocre or even poor results (relatively speaking) with the sort of results that warrant absolute admiration and delight.

    However, as all the 3 Olympiad newbies have vast experience (not the case in the past for Irish players) it is perhaps no surprise they are doing so well and have been so impressive.

    Funny thing is that the board placing for 1 and 5 are spot on and exactly the two players for those placings. The other 3 placings are simply wrong, absurd even, but of no great consequence, as it happens. By which I mean that the notion that Tarun should be in place 4 is patently ridiculous.

    There is/was the discretion of the captain to pick the board order placings and on the basis of form (the Irish ch just being weeks/days before the Olympiad) and a very impressive and well deserved result.

    Tarun should of course have been 2 or at least 3. Conor has not had one of his great results in a while and his most recent curiously enough though poor, also stopped another Irish player making a GM norm- what are the odds of such coincidental happenings. Just funny in an oddity sort of way.

    The only logical argument for him (Tarun) being 3 and not 2 is that Conor has shown such fantastic results before, already has GM norm and has the higher rating. Perfectly valid case. Not something to worry about either way. Either of these being 2 or 3 perfectly fine.

    In the case of Tom, well he too just played in the Irish ch and though also having a good result, it was not as good, and did not reflect the sort of form that Tarun had shown. Also, notwithstanding that Tom was winning in their individual game- as he was also losing too, and still got a draw.

    Point is, that it was obvious that on the next rating list in August Tarun would also be higher in rating, though not by much as it happens. In any event it is not a big difference as to who is placed 2,3 and 4 in terms of the way any of them might perform.

    I would think Tarun or Conor being 2 or 3 is fine, but Tarun being 4 absurd in the context of winning an Irish ch with 8/9 so soon before an Olympiad, but of no great import really. All performing positively, as is the case for 1 and 5.

    It is not the case that just because things turn out a particular way that justifies a choice or decisions made either. Technically Tarun should not be on the team this Olympiad, though aside from the player who had his Olympiad place stolen by the selection committee, hard to imagine anybody unhappy that Tarun is playing.

    Even at that, I am sure David Fitzsimons would have only positive and best wishes for Tarun at the Olympiad. So far, excellent team performance overall.

    Given that 2 Olympiad places are reserved for (one already taken by Tarun for 2024) Irish Champions and three places left, does this mean that A Baburin and M Heidenfeld are playing in their last Olympiad?

    Three places by rating and 2 for Irish ch surely would see a slew of players ahead in rating? Then again, how many of the top players will want to go to an Olympiad in future.

    A Lopez and S Collins [D Fitz] likely or not to return? No idea myself, Mark Quinn seems unlikely but who knows? Win the Irish in 2023 to join Tarun seems the only absolute way to get a place for Budapest 2024 and you hardly need to be 2400 to win an Irish ch. Great reason for the 2023 Irish ch to be very attractive, though it is 2016 since there was not a really strong Irish ch. Since then all have been very strong.

    For now it seems like Conor Murphy is going to make another well deserved GM norm and surge ahead to take the position of our number one player before too long. I would be confident that he will draw his next game.



  • Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    As I said before, its good fun making predictions, but most of the time they will be wrong. Trying to be a pundit makes idiots of us all.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,180 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Anyway...


    Tom and Alice sit today's games out.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭eclipsechaser


    Seems like a good argument for removing the right to an Olympiad place for winning the Irish Championship. You don't want 2/5 of the places taken up by worse players who happen to play well in a single tournament.

    As Spider says, it's not the case that just because things turn out a particular way that justifies a choice.



  • Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    Looks like Conor Murphy has got the dream Italian to my eye (no pun intended).

    The chess24 engine is giving me all kinds of completely ridiculous evaluations but I figured out there is a way to disable it - go to settings and disable the option "Show computer analysis" 



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,180 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Worth noting his main rival for gold, the Uzbek GM Yakubboev is playing the Armenian Hrant Melkumyan (2634). At 90 points stronger than Conor's opponent, I think it means that if both win, Yakubboev overtakes Conor in terms of rating performance.

    Nihal Sarin is playing Mamedov (2656), but that's not enough to overtake Conor should both win. The Greek Theodorou is playing Aronian, but I don't think that's enough to catch up if both win.

    I don't think all hope of a medal is lost if he draws - depends on other results of course, but it'd then leave him with the question of whether to go for the norm or sit out the last two games and hope no-one passes him out. I can't work out the exact formula used for rating performance - I've a programme that gives him 2787, not 2814 - but I make it a draw today would only be a 30 point drop in rating performance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 259 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Contrary to what eclipsechaser said above, in Conor's place I would want to keep playing and not sitting games out. Even if he were to win today and tomorrow (or the last round), sitting one game out, there is no guarantee that would earn the gold medal because it depends on what others are doing.

    The other chief contenders for the board 2 gold medal (Yakkuboev and Sarin) are on teams where they will meet higher-rated opponents than Conor and if they score well enough their Rp will go above Conor's. AT the time of writing, Yakkuboev and Sarin both stand worse but all results are possible; also Theodorou of Greece cannot be ruled out. Today he is playing Aronian and his Rp would shoot up if he wins.

    So the right policy for Conor is to get the best results he can for the team and maybe even have a 10-game GM norm. If he gets a board medal that's the icing on the cake. However should it be necessary for him to sit out a round for the sake of Tom and Tarun's norm chances, that is a different story, and it is up for the team to arrive at a consensus.

    I don't see Tom's chances of an IM norm being very realistic. He probably needs to score 2/2 and have high rated opponents who must be titled.

    Tarun, especially if he gets a result today, should have a good chance of a GM norm, yes, but he must meet one more GM to qualify on that count. Also it will probably be best for him to play 10 rounds to improve his Rp. At present his 1418 opponent has to be raised to 2200 for calculation purposes but the 2044 opponent must be counted. If he plays all remaining rounds, he can discount the win from round 1 and raise the 2044 player to 2200 for Rp calculation, and claim a 9-game norm so long as he has enough points.

    It will be much easier to calculate the scenarios after today's results are in and the team pairing for round 10 is known.

    At the time I am completing this post (after two hours play) no Irish results are in but Mark, Trisha and Diana unfortunately seem to be dead lost.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,180 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    You can add Babs to that list of players who seem lost.


    We've retrieved some points from these sorts of positions already this week, but you'd have to imagine at least three of them will end in defeats, which is a tough start this early.


    Edit - in fact, one of those games seems to have turned around already; Trisha's opponent has blundered horribly and now stands worse, despite being a couple of pawns up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    I dont see how some of these games are dead lost, or am I missing something

    edit - ok the babs Alekhine game I can now agree with

    Very brave decision by Conor Murphy to play on, they were about to repeat 3 times but the team kind of needs him to play on. Individually I suspect a draw would have been fine for him.

    Post edited by Joedryan on


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    And Conor has done it again! Not great anywhere else, though Tarun's eval bar is yoyoing all over the place, so fingers crossed - draw seems likely though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    haha ignore those eval bars they will do your head in



  • Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭eclipsechaser


    Outstanding from Conor. Soooo.... does he sit out from here on or keep going?

    Edit: Theodorou winning probably means he has to keep going.



  • Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    Today is the first day I followed the games closely and that was a very impressive effort from Conor Murphy, this is truly an outstanding performance.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 259 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Italy beat Ireland 2.5-1.5. The women are down 0-2 and unfortunately will probably lose the other two games also.

    Don't think Conor sits it out. Theodorou has beaten Aronian which may put him top of the list after 9 rounds. Sarin has drawn. Yakkuboev is a bit worse but will probably draw.

    Tarun's game indeed went up and down. I don't trust the online assessments so I copied the PGN to run Stockfish14 on my laptop. This shows that Tarun (who was slightly better at some point) made at least one big mistake allowing White's Q to get to g6 followed by Rxh6, but luckily for him, White threw away his advantage by 35 Rh8 (should have played 35 Bxd6 Bxd6 36 g5 says the oracle).

    EDIT: Congratulations to Conor on his GM norm (just needs to play one more game) and to Tarun for hanging in and keeping his GM norm hopes alive.

    2nd EDIT: Gukesh at last held to a draw - by Mamedyarov.



  • Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    Armenia in big danger of losing today, will throw the whole thing wide open again if so.....



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,180 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    The Indian the Uzbek are both drawing, which will help Conor at least.


    Eibhia in particular unfortunate - had a big attack and just missed one move. I suspect some of their opponents may have ratings that haven't caught up after covid (less likely to be an issue for the Open team playing stronger and more established players)



  • Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭corkcitychess


    Conor is almost certainly gauranteed the gold medal if he now sits out the last 2 games but will miss a GM norm in that event. If he plays one more game he gets his GM norm but risks his gold medal. I guess the choice is his now.....I think he will get plenty of GM norms...I would suggest he should sit out the last 2 games but of course the final choice should be his.

    I believe Howell will be sitting out his remaining games and taking the gold medal on board 3 (however he already has his GM title...it would make zero sense for him to play any more games now)



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 OissíneM


    Congrats to the Irish team on a stellar performance so far. Conor Murphy and Tarun have been particularly impressive- Peter Leko had some lovely words about Conor's performace from their chess24 rn4 steam at the 2h:20 mark (2:20-2:30), saying he outprepared a big theoritician and converted a very nice endgame. I just signed up for boards ie so I am not allowed post the link, but it's well worth the 10 minute watch.



  • Registered Users Posts: 259 ✭✭RooksPawn


    I really don't understand the attitude of you people who prefer the gold medal (which anyway isn't assured - didn't you read my previous post?) to the next step towards the GM title. If Conor stopped playing now he might end in 4th place on the list behind the three I mentioned.

    Not to mention the fact the team needs you to play and win. I cannot believe for a moment that Conor is not asking to play tomorrow, probably with White

    BTW: Trisha's opponent has let her off again and the double rook ending is objectively drawn though mistakes are still possible.



  • Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    Completely agree, this medal thing is not really that big of a deal, the GM norm certainly is



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    Everyone should have an equal chance of representing Ireland and the fairest ways are by going strictly on rating and by awarding a place to the Irish Champion because these two methods are transparent and not open to dispute. IF selection is left up to other people then elements like favouritism, nepotism, connections, outside influence, lobbying etc come into the equation and anyone who is not popular with the selectors , for whatever reasons, could unjustly miss out. The Irish Championship place also gives an opportunity to people who might not qualify on rating alone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭corkcitychess


    the medal thing is huge...and actually I bet there is a big cash prize also.

    like I said final decision will be Conors and actually probably no one cares about the final team position! (not me anyway...it was always about norms...medals were not a consideration because no one ever thought they would be but now of course it is a huge consideration) ...and Conor not playing will benifit Tarun and Toms chances of norms.

    plenty to think about for Conor and the team tonight! I am betting Conor will sit out the last 2 rounds ... let us wait and see.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭eclipsechaser


    The rationale is that while there will be many more opportunities for him to get a GM norm, there won't many to pick up an Olympiad gold medal.

    I definitely take your point that he needs to be strategic based on how the rest of the field are doing.

    But the medal would definitely enter my thinking.

    Anyhow, it's a great position to be in. Fair play to him and the team.



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