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Dole 'summer bonus' .. are they for real?

1356716

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,936 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    I haven't read the full thread so this might have already been addressed, but here goes anyway.

    If you're long-term unemployed, paying reduced rent in a council house or receiving HAP, have a medical card and extra payments for dependents you can live quite comfortably on social welfare.

    If you've been working, have a mortgage or pay full market rate rent, no medical card or additional payments you would struggle on the PUP.

    The 2 situations aren't comparable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    There goes the "ah shure it'll be grand" attitude I mentioned.

    Anyone on Jobseekers for over 12 months should be forced to either work on Community Employment Schemes or retrain.

    The attitude should be that you have to do something productive to heat and eat.

    Long term welfare should be the reserve of those who can't work. And they should be offered better supports in some instances.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Ok Bill Cullen. I look forward to your latest book. I'm sure "The case for forced labour in the 21st century" will be a major hit at bookstands nationwide.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    Do you think it is acceptable for people to be on JSA for years and even decades?

    You know right well that it's not a case for forced labour. There is always the option to end a claim for JSA, isn't there?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    About 7k people in receipt of jobseekers for over a decade. These people likely have mental health or substance abuse issues. Not ideal but I'm not losing sleep about 7 thousand people in a labour force of 2.5 million. Foam at the mouth about these people all you want, but you've completely overstated the scale of the issue. I'd rather that cohort of people get healthy and well in mind and body before putting them on the streets or through some General Pinochet inspired forced workhouse scheme.

    Perspective.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 648 ✭✭✭MakersMark


    Scroungers gonna scrounge.

    Layabouts gonna lay.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That number is a waste of time.

    What are unemployment rate doesn't take account of is anyone who "can't" partake in it.

    And the majority of those scroungers you see clogging up social housing or pushing a small child in a Biggie with another 3 U6 in tow (smoking a fag)...you know those ones?.

    None of them are included as they're all on Carers Allowance, Disability Allowance, OFP etc..

    So no matter what number we hear, it's nothing to be proud about as that doesn't take account of about 95% of the career bums who are born in and die in that lucrative system (you can have a comfortable life if you throw out a few kids to jump the housing list, and boost your weekly payments between CDAs and Child Benefit, add in the possibility for you to get Carers and Domiciliary and some of these are pulling in e500-700 a week).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    This post reminds of this scene from Anchorman

    "Those numbers don't take into account households with two television sets...and... other things of that nature"

    You've got a facts processing problem my friend, and you're powered by anger and no little bitterness.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What fact have I missed?.

    It is a fact that our unemployment rate isn't a good measure when it disregards a huge majority of the life long scroungers.

    There are very few habituatal wasters on Jobseekers or working, so theyre not included in the labour force.

    That is a fact.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    😂

    Go to bed. It's late and by the sounds of things you've got to be productive tommorow.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,541 ✭✭✭✭MEGA BRO WOLF 5000


    Nutn but snakes in dis thread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,042 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Spare me the sanctamony, it's clear what your agenda is, pretending you don't have a chip on your shoulder about those on SW supports. You paint every one, regardless of their circumstances and on a SW support as being almost akin to vermin.

    You've showed nothing but your true colors and clearly have not a clue how the SW System works.

    Read the Thread Title title and bizzare posts which might help you determine this is nothing more than SW Bashing regardless of people's circumstances.

    OP Anticipated they'll get lots of reaction to suit their bizzare and ill informed notions, hasn't quite worked out that way.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,042 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Absolutely and well said, for some inexplicable and disturbing reason there's a small cohort in Irish Society that need to kick people when they are down and because of a small number of high profile cases automatically assume everyone on SW is playing the system, Lazy and beneath contempt.

    Absolutely, have a debate, analyse what's going on but these threads as its title suggests and along with other threads have only one intention, Spew false information and spread hateful commentary.

    People forget there are users of Boards, struggling and perhaps in desperate circumstances through no fault of theirs reading bile like what's being posted in these nasty threads and they care not a Jot about how comments may affect others. It's disgusting.

    I spent almost two years trying to help users on Boards, navigate challenges during the Pandemic, primarily the PUP payment, understanding entitlements, directing people to advice centres, Ordinary, Decent people who found themselves unemployed for the first time in their lives who went on to develop other personal challenges. I'm no expert but took the time to research and help along with more experienced posters to try and help people.

    The bile I witnessed at time was shocking but thankfully many people bounced back and were greatful for the little, I and other users did.

    That awful Cliché "We're all in this Together" was infact the greatest lie to come out of the Pandemic.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭Tonesjones


    What could we do to get rid of this 65k person drain on public finances?

    Where do they live? They wouldn't be able to afford a mortgage or private rents they must have some sort of free housing . How many free houses are non contributors taking up?

    I have asked you as you are sharing around the 65k person fact. You might have access to the details.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,042 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Fascinating an article quoted from 2021, not withstanding a global pandemic in full swing the issues surrounding long term unemployment are extremely complex and not as you seem to think, Black and white.

    Of course there's a cohort who just have no intention of working (what society doesn't) but to assume all on long term JSA don't want to work is a stretch. Some of this cohert maybe bordeline unfit to work but don't qualify for disability, Some may have limited abilities to interact, engage, Some may have criminal backgrounds, convictions meaning they find it impossible to gain employment, some may be one CE schemes, some may have no transport, there's just too many variables at play to say one way or another all long term unemployed Don't want to work.

    If the Department, determine after numerous attempts a person is a lost cause or perhaps just don't have to abilities or qualifications to obtain employment or a person is Just unemployable because of past History, they don't move people onto Disibility or non Jobseekers payments, every medically related SW payment has to go through a strict review process and medical sign off.

    Wether people like it or not, every society will have long term unemployment and the reasons for it very, very, very complex.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,918 ✭✭✭✭Geuze



    Live Register May 2022

    Table 6: 65,678 on the Live Register more than a year

    It seems hard to believe that all 66,000 of these people are genuine, given the widespread labour shortages, and refugees able to get jobs within days of arriving.


    Also, there are 40,000 construction workers on the Live Register!!!!!

    Craft and related = 21,076

    Plant and machine operatives = 18,625



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,918 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Moving 50,000 of the long-term JSA people into employment would benefit everybody.

    More output

    Lower JSA expenditure = 500m

    More tax revenue



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 806 ✭✭✭French Toast


    Summer bonus. Christ.

    There are people lounging in the social welfare safety net as though it were a hammock.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,935 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    Can people in receipt of JSB (not JSA or Illness etc) receive any other income other than the €208?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,042 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Complex, technically no for those on a FULL JSB/A payment, however some may be on a CE or job activation program that offers a top up, some may only be clawing reduced hours jobseekers payment (actually the numbers quoted by some don't factor in many who are recieved partial payments) as for illness benefit, the guidelines very clear, a recipient cannot work but may get sick pay also from an employer with the IB payment deducted.

    Like everything SW Related, not everything is straightforward and as I mentioned earlier, those on IB or JSB are not entitled to Fuel allowance or payments some think the department just throws at people.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,042 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    @Danno, just spotted your slur re my employment situation and whilst none of your business let me enlighten you about the person I am.

    I had a 30 year very successful career in Hospitality, worked in over 15 countries, visited over 70, worked also in the voluntary sector, helped out at homeless shelters and direct provision .

    Purchased my humble home 21 years ago, small mortgage remaining, semi retired but do have a long term illness and not on DA.

    Brought up in state care for 16 years, have 13 brothers and sisters I've never met, faced homelessness, earned substantial salaries and in essence have experience both the highs and lows in life. I got no hand outs and certainly no support from the state and was fecked out on the street when I was 18. Did I falter, yes but forged a career through ruthless determination.

    I'd like to think my experienced in life helps me better form judgements and look at individual situations on there merits. I've learned to respect people and equally don't suffer fools gladly. As a chef, I'd have made Gordon Ramsey blush (I worked for him too)

    You know nothing about me, I'm not struggling, that doesn't mean I can't show compassion and understanding, the same qualities shown to me by very decent people in my youth. I've seen poverty that would make your head spin and equally worked for people who's wealth would also make your head spin.

    I make no apology for having an open mind, respect for others and always trying to understand why someone is in difficulties and try and help when I can.

    Don't assume your dealing with left wing loonies when judging posters.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users Posts: 687 ✭✭✭bunderoon


    Off the top of my head, I know of at least 9 people who haven't worked in since 07-09 onwards in my small town. There are many more single mothers and some who have live-in partners but that's a separate issue. As we are a small town, everyone knows everyone.

    The 9 that I know used to have to go to the local office every month to sign on and post office every week to collect. But that changed years ago and they get it paid into their accounts online.

    5 of them live with parent/parents. No rent or bills. The others have council houses and kids. They have no intention of working as they would only come out slightly better if they did and would lose 40hrs out of their week.

    But there is an underlying problem here that never seems to be addressed - Mental Health. I know 5 of these lads personally who had all the opportunities the rest of us had. We went to school together. They made some poor decisions after school with trades / college and fell into a rut. We have tried to help many times but to no avail. And for the past 13-15 years, they have been wasting away. From time to time they were forced to do some courses and once they get to the 55% attendance mark, they'd leave it. Getting over 55% means that the payments are not stopped.


    The above probably explains the majority of the 'new' social welfare class of 2007 to 2022. Maybe it explains some of the life long 'termers' of 90s to '07.

    You genuinely have people who are ok with 'existing' week to week and others that are so deep in the depression hole that they don't want to even try to pull themselves out incase it messes with the comfort of knowing that there is ~200e coming each Thursday.

    A simple rule of thumb to know if there are jobs, even basic service based jobs is to go to your local deli/supermarket/fast food/petrol station - they are mostly staffed with eastern Europeans. Meaning that we have people with the get-up-and-go attitude who see the value in leaving their own country and go and work in Ireland in a minimum waged service based job. And obviously they still need to pay bills where as they live here. So there is work - but many of the Irish do not want to avail of them due to the social welfare packages they are on.


    With AI and automation, it wont matter for much longer. The universal payment will be introduced nationally as there wont be many of these service based jobs left. Many more will be unemployed / unemployable. It's a scary future ahead as taxes will have to pay for this as it does now. But the middle class is growing smaller and so will the tax base.



    **** And just to state the bloody obvious - of course there are genuine recipients of social welfare. Most are. I'm sure its an absolute nightmare trying to manage one's self/family/home/outgoings when being made redundant. Especially if you are in an area where there are not that many opportunities for your skillset. The above is not about these people. It's about the failing of the state to genuinely help those who cant/wont help themselves. ****



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,042 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    You make excellent points and perhaps mental illness not fully understood or even diagnosed in many people. There's also a number of insurmountable hurdles for some people living very rurally, I'm from Dublin but have lived in rural Ireland for 21 years apart from when I worked abroad or lived on site at various jobs.

    I should however point out that during the Pandemic, claimants were given the option to have their payments made directly to their bank, credit union but that's come to an end, all new jobseekers payment claims have to be collected at PO and the department is gradually returning all existing claimants back to PO for collection. It is only in very specific and normal situations, pre pandemic a person may be permitted to have payment made to bank and these requests made on a case by case basis.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,918 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    A good post, fair points.

    I don't agree with the automation comments. We have never had as much automation as today, and yet we have massive labour shortages.

    Yes, I accept that automation in factories will replace mundane tasks - great, bring it on, and move those workers away from boring tasks to higher value jobs, everybody benefits.

    Automation may replace simple tasks like data entry / stock control, etc. - great, that means higher productivity and higher real wages, great, we need more of that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,042 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Spoke to a buddy working in Intel recently, there was much fanfare about the arrival of a very complex machine recently (I won't pretend to know what it was) but its reckoned when fully operational, there'll be quite a few redundancies.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,918 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Question

    Is now a good time to move to abolish JSA altogether?

    Reform JSB by extending it to 12 months, and make JSB flexible, so that in recessions it can extend further, e.g. to 24 months.

    There are a few countries that do not have an equivalent to JSA, e.g. USA and Denmark



  • Registered Users Posts: 687 ✭✭✭bunderoon


    The payments thing has been mentioned from time to time with them over the years and this is 10+ years before COVID. They dont go to post office each week to collect. So the case-by-case is probably much more widespread. Unless its more of a rural thing as not all villages and small towns now have post offices.

    I'm genuinely very concerned for the future. We are in 200+billion in debt and rising and we borrow since we cant print our own way out of it. The government wastes so much of the borrowed money. AI and automation will decimate the employment opportunities for the adults of tomorrow. Parents of kids today really need to take matters into their own hands with education and guiding their kids into areas that will still have jobs. <- again, a different topic but will merge into this in the next 10-15 years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 828 ✭✭✭Juran


    Very good comments from everyone.

    Is it time to totally overhaul the social welfare system in Ireland ?

    Examples ..

    We need special needs/sick welfare, carer, etc.

    Jobseekers welfare for those who worked, paid national insurance, they get a % of their previous wages for X months, decreases over time, until it moves to unemploymemt welfare.

    Unemployment welfare in the form of food, energy & clothing stamps, limited public transport trips. No cash.

    Education - incentavise unemployed people on food stamps to get education or training with extra stamps.

    There is plenty of education and training oppurtunities for the unemployed in this country and I fully support this. This is an investment into the country's future. Look across the US, all those who are unemployed cannot get into schools, colleges, or apprentiships, like we can for FREE. I know plenty who did this.

    Another area needs reform is the medical card. Everyone who works but earns less than say €40k should also recieve a medical card. I am not looking for one, but I remember when I was earning around €25k to 35k (20 years ago), going to the doctor for antibiotics, the pill, etc or dentist was a huge layout for me. It shouldnt have been, I was paying taxes and PRSI.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    Fine so. I would hope that's the case. We were discussing the claim that the dole is rife with people who choose not to work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    I'd expect so. We have crooked Garda, should we be on here saying 'plenty' of them are crooked with no stats to support it?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,042 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Possibly but the problem is the very complex Means Testing Rules. JSB is only paid if a person has enough contributions and I believe for 6 or 9 months, there's still the requirement, must be seeking employment but it's not means tested.

    JSA is means tested and actually because there are possibly further allowances for dependent children etc, some people opt for this rather than JSB which has essentially no additional allowances attached.

    I'd just say this €208 per week in the current climate is tight and should also point out JSB can be paid at lower rates, payment determined is reflective of previous gross earning also, it's some times assumed, incorrectly JSB is automatically paid at the highest rate, it is not and many who were earning minimum wage or PT hours can find themselves getting a much lower JSB payment.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    I'm confident you are correct. My point is we've no numbers and I would guess there are more decent people who need it and get it so I won't talk **** about them all because of a few anecdotes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 687 ✭✭✭bunderoon


    AI / Blockchain / Automation will replace many more than the above in the next 20 years onwards (Legal/IT/Education/Construction/Farming etc etc). We are still on the way up towards the eventual tipping point. So for now the statement "We have never had as much automation as today, and yet we have massive labour shortages' is true.

    The point of freeing up more people to do other tasks.. Yes, but also adding those people to the increasing number of people looking for work. And it will be exponential. I remember talking about this to one of my lecturers many years ago and his answer was that 'well, before cars, we had horses. The people who were employed in services relating to horses eventually worked in the motor industry and on so in every other industry.' But that logic has a limited life span since Tech eventually replaces the human altogether. : )



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,918 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Maybe off-topic, but please give specific examples of occupations under threat from automation?

    Legal? If we could automate probate and conveyancing, great, but there isn't a hope of that happening.

    I switched mortgage in last year, I saw all the paperwork. The mortgage broker did have a platform to upload PDFs and photos, yes, great, but at the sol it's all paper!!!

    I work in education - the employment keeps rising.

    Construction - yes, we need more pre-fabrication, great, bring it on, but as we are short of so many houses, we need more staff, not less.

    Students and graduates today need not fear automation. Due to an ageing society, we'll need more and more people to work.

    Sure just this week, there was talk of importing 40,000 non-EU workers!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,081 ✭✭✭gipi


    There are additional allowances for children (and spouse\partner) on JSB. It is means-tested but it does exist.

    People who opt for JSA rather than JSB may have a patchy PRSI record, so do better on the means-tested payment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,042 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    I think we're a bit off automation affecting the Jobs market but I'd have to think these sectors should worry.

    Pharma

    Manufacturing generally

    Financial

    Semi conducter production

    Engineering

    Chemical

    Retail Supermarkets

    Also let's not forget, whilst not automated, Online shopping has crucified the retail sector, the Pandemic in essence speeded up the move to online shopping away from the high Street.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Fattybojangles


    Another one of these fcuking threads just what boards needs. If living on the dole is so great lads there's nothing stopping ye from doing it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,042 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    To be fair yes there are and yes means tested, I'm just pointing out it's an additional application process and some nominate and are indeed advised to apply for JSA by the department themselves.

    Yes there may be patchy PRSI in some situations but generally the reason for a reduced JSB payment is because the applicants gross weekly salary was low in the year used for assessment, again just pointing out JSB is not always paid at the higher rate.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Not sure why people are getting upset about this ?, this is tip of the iceberg compared to when SF lead the next government



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,042 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Didn't take long, SF thrown into the Mix 🙄🙄🙄

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Fattybojangles


    It actually took 5 pages I'm surprised it took that long.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,213 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    They won't because they know the dole is bollocks. But alot of people love a whinge. It's all hot air. But 99.999% of stuff posted in current affairs especially is all hot air.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,042 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,936 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    It will be interesting to see what, if anything, becomes of this.

    I would be in favour of higher rates paid to the newly unemployed, carers, pensioners who are wholly dependent on the state pension and those on disability allowance in tandem with reductions for the long-term unemployed or those who have never worked.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Gant21


    The working person does not choose to be a bum and live in a ghetto.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,740 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    Pride, dignity, respect.


    Asking what one can do for its country and not what ones country can do for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Is this what it's all about? Yes, you're a model of prodictivity next to the tiny sliver of long-term unemployed in the economy Comrade Stakhanovite.

    The General Secretary of the party will be along shortly to award you your hero of socialist labour medal for meeting your backyard pig-iron quota.

    It's astonishing how people's cup runneth over with bile with the reality of a tiny percentage of long term unemployed who are probably more in need of health interventions than anything else.

    Of all the problems afflicting the country at the moment, it doesn't even trouble the top 20.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    People say its a few, acknowledge its not the majority yet persist in tarring them all and only discussing the alledged lazy and enjoying the dole going to the bookies. Cop on lads.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Gant21




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,254 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    once again, the root causes of long term unemployment are complex, most struggling with complex psychological issues and disorders, most largely undiagnosed, therefore untreated, forcing them to work without appropriate treatments and supports, would more than likely lead to widescale failure, and further worsening of these issues.....

    as covid showed us, increasing welfare actually worked, as in it greatly benefit recipients and the economy, so yes, giving citizens money to spend actually worked, who would have known!



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