Dole 'summer bonus' .. are they for real?

Dempo1

@Danno, just spotted your slur re my employment situation and whilst none of your business let me enlighten you about the person I am.

I had a 30 year very successful career in Hospitality, worked in over 15 countries, visited over 70, worked also in the voluntary sector, helped out at homeless shelters and direct provision .

Purchased my humble home 21 years ago, small mortgage remaining, semi retired but do have a long term illness and not on DA.

Brought up in state care for 16 years, have 13 brothers and sisters I've never met, faced homelessness, earned substantial salaries and in essence have experience both the highs and lows in life. I got no hand outs and certainly no support from the state and was fecked out on the street when I was 18. Did I falter, yes but forged a career through ruthless determination.

I'd like to think my experienced in life helps me better form judgements and look at individual situations on there merits. I've learned to respect people and equally don't suffer fools gladly. As a chef, I'd have made Gordon Ramsey blush (I worked for him too)

You know nothing about me, I'm not struggling, that doesn't mean I can't show compassion and understanding, the same qualities shown to me by very decent people in my youth. I've seen poverty that would make your head spin and equally worked for people who's wealth would also make your head spin.

I make no apology for having an open mind, respect for others and always trying to understand why someone is in difficulties and try and help when I can.

Don't assume your dealing with left wing loonies when judging posters.

bunderoon

Off the top of my head, I know of at least 9 people who haven't worked in since 07-09 onwards in my small town. There are many more single mothers and some who have live-in partners but that's a separate issue. As we are a small town, everyone knows everyone.

The 9 that I know used to have to go to the local office every month to sign on and post office every week to collect. But that changed years ago and they get it paid into their accounts online.

5 of them live with parent/parents. No rent or bills. The others have council houses and kids. They have no intention of working as they would only come out slightly better if they did and would lose 40hrs out of their week.

But there is an underlying problem here that never seems to be addressed - Mental Health. I know 5 of these lads personally who had all the opportunities the rest of us had. We went to school together. They made some poor decisions after school with trades / college and fell into a rut. We have tried to help many times but to no avail. And for the past 13-15 years, they have been wasting away. From time to time they were forced to do some courses and once they get to the 55% attendance mark, they'd leave it. Getting over 55% means that the payments are not stopped.

The above probably explains the majority of the 'new' social welfare class of 2007 to 2022. Maybe it explains some of the life long 'termers' of 90s to '07.

You genuinely have people who are ok with 'existing' week to week and others that are so deep in the depression hole that they don't want to even try to pull themselves out incase it messes with the comfort of knowing that there is ~200e coming each Thursday.

A simple rule of thumb to know if there are jobs, even basic service based jobs is to go to your local deli/supermarket/fast food/petrol station - they are mostly staffed with eastern Europeans. Meaning that we have people with the get-up-and-go attitude who see the value in leaving their own country and go and work in Ireland in a minimum waged service based job. And obviously they still need to pay bills where as they live here. So there is work - but many of the Irish do not want to avail of them due to the social welfare packages they are on.

With AI and automation, it wont matter for much longer. The universal payment will be introduced nationally as there wont be many of these service based jobs left. Many more will be unemployed / unemployable. It's a scary future ahead as taxes will have to pay for this as it does now. But the middle class is growing smaller and so will the tax base.

**** And just to state the bloody obvious - of course there are genuine recipients of social welfare. Most are. I'm sure its an absolute nightmare trying to manage one's self/family/home/outgoings when being made redundant. Especially if you are in an area where there are not that many opportunities for your skillset. The above is not about these people. It's about the failing of the state to genuinely help those who cant/wont help themselves. ****

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119182734#Comment_119182734

You make excellent points and perhaps mental illness not fully understood or even diagnosed in many people. There's also a number of insurmountable hurdles for some people living very rurally, I'm from Dublin but have lived in rural Ireland for 21 years apart from when I worked abroad or lived on site at various jobs.

I should however point out that during the Pandemic, claimants were given the option to have their payments made directly to their bank, credit union but that's come to an end, all new jobseekers payment claims have to be collected at PO and the department is gradually returning all existing claimants back to PO for collection. It is only in very specific and normal situations, pre pandemic a person may be permitted to have payment made to bank and these requests made on a case by case basis.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119182734#Comment_119182734

A good post, fair points.

I don't agree with the automation comments. We have never had as much automation as today, and yet we have massive labour shortages.

Yes, I accept that automation in factories will replace mundane tasks - great, bring it on, and move those workers away from boring tasks to higher value jobs, everybody benefits.

Automation may replace simple tasks like data entry / stock control, etc. - great, that means higher productivity and higher real wages, great, we need more of that.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119182853#Comment_119182853

Spoke to a buddy working in Intel recently, there was much fanfare about the arrival of a very complex machine recently (I won't pretend to know what it was) but its reckoned when fully operational, there'll be quite a few redundancies.

Geuze

Question

Is now a good time to move to abolish JSA altogether?

Reform JSB by extending it to 12 months, and make JSB flexible, so that in recessions it can extend further, e.g. to 24 months.

There are a few countries that do not have an equivalent to JSA, e.g. USA and Denmark

bunderoon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119182787#Comment_119182787

The payments thing has been mentioned from time to time with them over the years and this is 10+ years before COVID. They dont go to post office each week to collect. So the case-by-case is probably much more widespread. Unless its more of a rural thing as not all villages and small towns now have post offices.

I'm genuinely very concerned for the future. We are in 200+billion in debt and rising and we borrow since we cant print our own way out of it. The government wastes so much of the borrowed money. AI and automation will decimate the employment opportunities for the adults of tomorrow. Parents of kids today really need to take matters into their own hands with education and guiding their kids into areas that will still have jobs. <- again, a different topic but will merge into this in the next 10-15 years.

Juran

Very good comments from everyone.

Is it time to totally overhaul the social welfare system in Ireland ?

Examples ..

We need special needs/sick welfare, carer, etc.

Jobseekers welfare for those who worked, paid national insurance, they get a % of their previous wages for X months, decreases over time, until it moves to unemploymemt welfare.

Unemployment welfare in the form of food, energy & clothing stamps, limited public transport trips. No cash.

Education - incentavise unemployed people on food stamps to get education or training with extra stamps.

There is plenty of education and training oppurtunities for the unemployed in this country and I fully support this. This is an investment into the country's future. Look across the US, all those who are unemployed cannot get into schools, colleges, or apprentiships, like we can for FREE. I know plenty who did this.

Another area needs reform is the medical card. Everyone who works but earns less than say €40k should also recieve a medical card. I am not looking for one, but I remember when I was earning around €25k to 35k (20 years ago), going to the doctor for antibiotics, the pill, etc or dentist was a huge layout for me. It shouldnt have been, I was paying taxes and PRSI.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119181405#Comment_119181405

Fine so. I would hope that's the case. We were discussing the claim that the dole is rife with people who choose not to work.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119181451#Comment_119181451

I'd expect so. We have crooked Garda, should we be on here saying 'plenty' of them are crooked with no stats to support it?

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119182879#Comment_119182879

Possibly but the problem is the very complex Means Testing Rules. JSB is only paid if a person has enough contributions and I believe for 6 or 9 months, there's still the requirement, must be seeking employment but it's not means tested.

JSA is means tested and actually because there are possibly further allowances for dependent children etc, some people opt for this rather than JSB which has essentially no additional allowances attached.

I'd just say this €208 per week in the current climate is tight and should also point out JSB can be paid at lower rates, payment determined is reflective of previous gross earning also, it's some times assumed, incorrectly JSB is automatically paid at the highest rate, it is not and many who were earning minimum wage or PT hours can find themselves getting a much lower JSB payment.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119181465#Comment_119181465

I'm confident you are correct. My point is we've no numbers and I would guess there are more decent people who need it and get it so I won't talk **** about them all because of a few anecdotes.

bunderoon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119182853#Comment_119182853

AI / Blockchain / Automation will replace many more than the above in the next 20 years onwards (Legal/IT/Education/Construction/Farming etc etc). We are still on the way up towards the eventual tipping point. So for now the statement "We have never had as much automation as today, and yet we have massive labour shortages' is true.

The point of freeing up more people to do other tasks.. Yes, but also adding those people to the increasing number of people looking for work. And it will be exponential. I remember talking about this to one of my lecturers many years ago and his answer was that 'well, before cars, we had horses. The people who were employed in services relating to horses eventually worked in the motor industry and on so in every other industry.' But that logic has a limited life span since Tech eventually replaces the human altogether. : )

Geuze

Maybe off-topic, but please give specific examples of occupations under threat from automation?

Legal? If we could automate probate and conveyancing, great, but there isn't a hope of that happening.

I switched mortgage in last year, I saw all the paperwork. The mortgage broker did have a platform to upload PDFs and photos, yes, great, but at the sol it's all paper!!!

I work in education - the employment keeps rising.

Construction - yes, we need more pre-fabrication, great, bring it on, but as we are short of so many houses, we need more staff, not less.

Students and graduates today need not fear automation. Due to an ageing society, we'll need more and more people to work.

Sure just this week, there was talk of importing 40,000 non-EU workers!!

gipi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119182969#Comment_119182969

There are additional allowances for children (and spouse\partner) on JSB. It is means-tested but it does exist.

People who opt for JSA rather than JSB may have a patchy PRSI record, so do better on the means-tested payment.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119183054#Comment_119183054

I think we're a bit off automation affecting the Jobs market but I'd have to think these sectors should worry.

Pharma

Manufacturing generally

Financial

Semi conducter production

Engineering

Chemical

Retail Supermarkets

Also let's not forget, whilst not automated, Online shopping has crucified the retail sector, the Pandemic in essence speeded up the move to online shopping away from the high Street.

Fattybojangles

Another one of these fcuking threads just what boards needs. If living on the dole is so great lads there's nothing stopping ye from doing it.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119183095#Comment_119183095

To be fair yes there are and yes means tested, I'm just pointing out it's an additional application process and some nominate and are indeed advised to apply for JSA by the department themselves.

Yes there may be patchy PRSI in some situations but generally the reason for a reduced JSB payment is because the applicants gross weekly salary was low in the year used for assessment, again just pointing out JSB is not always paid at the higher rate.

Mad_maxx

Not sure why people are getting upset about this ?, this is tip of the iceberg compared to when SF lead the next government

Dempo1

Didn't take long, SF thrown into the Mix 🙄🙄🙄

Fattybojangles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119183253#Comment_119183253

It actually took 5 pages I'm surprised it took that long.

B.A._Baracus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119183118#Comment_119183118

They won't because they know the dole is bollocks. But alot of people love a whinge. It's all hot air. But 99.999% of stuff posted in current affairs especially is all hot air.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119183319#Comment_119183319

Me too, astonishing 😁

Leg End Reject

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/0610/1304028-case-for-linking-jobseekers-benefit-to-previous-pay/

It will be interesting to see what, if anything, becomes of this.

I would be in favour of higher rates paid to the newly unemployed, carers, pensioners who are wholly dependent on the state pension and those on disability allowance in tandem with reductions for the long-term unemployed or those who have never worked.

Gant21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119183118#Comment_119183118

The working person does not choose to be a bum and live in a ghetto.

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119183118#Comment_119183118

Pride, dignity, respect.

Asking what one can do for its country and not what ones country can do for them.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119183918#Comment_119183918

Is this what it's all about? Yes, you're a model of prodictivity next to the tiny sliver of long-term unemployed in the economy Comrade Stakhanovite.

The General Secretary of the party will be along shortly to award you your hero of socialist labour medal for meeting your backyard pig-iron quota.

It's astonishing how people's cup runneth over with bile with the reality of a tiny percentage of long term unemployed who are probably more in need of health interventions than anything else.

Of all the problems afflicting the country at the moment, it doesn't even trouble the top 20.

Brucie Bonus

People say its a few, acknowledge its not the majority yet persist in tarring them all and only discussing the alledged lazy and enjoying the dole going to the bookies. Cop on lads.

Gant21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119184028#Comment_119184028

Yawn, time to put you on ignore.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058249538/dole-summer-bonus-are-they-for-real

once again, the root causes of long term unemployment are complex, most struggling with complex psychological issues and disorders, most largely undiagnosed, therefore untreated, forcing them to work without appropriate treatments and supports, would more than likely lead to widescale failure, and further worsening of these issues.....

as covid showed us, increasing welfare actually worked, as in it greatly benefit recipients and the economy, so yes, giving citizens money to spend actually worked, who would have known!