Irish birthrate slumps 22% in a decade

When I say what exactly?

I think you might just be injecting a fair bit of your own standards into your considerations tbh 😁

There are plenty of people have none of the above, and it doesn’t appear to be any impediment whatsoever to their ability to reproduce and to raise their children.

Financial considerations are of course a priority for some people, they’re definitely not the priority for most people who have children, or it would be evident as you’re suggesting that the attitude of “if it happens, it happens, everything will fall into place”, wouldn’t be as prevalent as it still is in many cultures.

Instead what appears to happen in Western society at least, is that people take on crippling amounts of personal debt to fund their lifestyles, and then complain about the fact that they cannot cope with the financial cost of the lifestyle they have chosen.

My point is that your observations are based upon your own standards. The attitude you referred to of “if it happens, it happens, everything will fall into place”, is clearly by no means outdated when national figures from the CSO would definitely suggest otherwise -

• 661,518 people in Ireland are living in poverty, of which 210,363 are children.
• 133,627 people living in poverty are in employment; the “working poor”.
• 781,794 people are experiencing deprivation, of which 250,956 are children.

https://www.socialjustice.ie/article/more-660000-people-poverty-2020-over-210000-are-children

At least, I am not one of those, who just wants children and doesn't care about anything else, and later on, complaining that life has gotten so expensive.

Ever put children through university? Or taken them on a holiday? Driver's license training? New computers every other year, new cellphones?

There are no guarantees when it comes to children looking after elderly parents, it's a case of hoping they will help and many will do so. What's the alternative? State care services are in a shambles, acute hospitals, nursing homes, other residential homes, homecare. Outsourcing to the private sector who cut corners. Lack of effective oversight, numerous scandals and fcukups. Today's one involves foster care, we have one state agency (HIQA) criticising another state agency (TUSLA) over this. At least HIQA has a remit for this, despite a lot of talk from spoofer Varadkar and others over the years, homecare services for the elderly remain unregulated.

As a full time family carer for a parent myself, I have direct personal experience of this. I shudder to think how my parent would be treated if I wasn't around. I've also seen what has happened to uncles who were childless bachelors/widowers with no children to advocate for them. Having money helps but doesn't necessarily help as much as people think.

A lot of people are naive or don't think of the practicalities - "I won't burden my children", "I'll save my money and organise my own care", "I'll kill myself when I start to decline" etc. Doesn't work that way in reality.

If you were the child would you prefer to be there or not be there, to exist or not but exist

At least, I am not one of those, who just wants children and doesn't care about anything else, and later on, complaining that life has gotten so expensive.

Well good for you, but the point I was making is that you’re still introducing your own standards in order to conclude that the attitude you refer to is outdated, when it’s not. Y’know what also never goes out of date? Judging other people by your own standards.

And that’s not a criticism of you personally either btw, it just is what it is. I mean, I’m one of those people who just wants children and doesn’t care about anything else, and I still complain that life has gotten so expensive, because it has, and I knew long before I had children that the cost of living only goes one way - up, sometimes exponentially. One idea isn’t in conflict with the other.

People can prepare for both, and some people in spite of all their preparation, can be hit with a real curve ball they weren’t expecting. Again, it happens. It happened to my own family members, and even though we don’t get on (their attitude would be similar to yours), I still help them out, because they’re family. It doesn’t matter that they wouldn’t do the same for me if I were in their position. As far as I’m concerned, it’s what families are supposed to do for each other - support each other. The rest of my family don’t feel the same way, it is what it is, grand. I don’t care to judge them for that, because I understand why we think very differently.

To answer your questions though -

Ever put children through university? Or taken them on a holiday? Driver's license training? New computers every other year, new cellphones?

Yes, a couple of times. They weren’t my own children though, my own child is still only in fifth year, he’s not sure about whether he’ll study here or abroad. Either way financing his further education is the least of my concerns. I’m prepared for that, I worry about other things which could happen, but he doesn’t need that on his shoulders.

Once I think, I don’t really do holidays, my wife likes travelling to different countries takes our child with her. Covid stopped them in their tracks for a bit, but nobody was prepared for that.

Drivers licence trainings a bit random but no, I haven’t considered that one 😁 He’ll pay for that himself though, just like the way he’s eyeballing cars these days and he knows he has to save up for one himself. I’m not buying him a car!

Laptops and phones are a funny one because I don’t mind getting him anything that encourages his education, so I don’t mind getting him a new laptop for school. Phones are a bit harder to justify, but he tries all the same twisting my arm with the “it’s for my education” line. He’s happy out with my old phone which I gave him when I got a new second-hand one for myself. If he wants a new phone, he can pay for it himself.

All that is to say, that parents set the expectations and standards for their children, and each generation has higher expectations than the previous one. That’s why for example there is a substantial rise in the numbers of children availing of third level education than seen in previous generations. It’s less to do with cost of living or inflation or any of the rest of it - it’s entirely about setting expectations and standards. That’s why I made the point that you appeared to be injecting your own standards into your conclusions, but they’re generally not reflected in reality.

@Igotadose sorta hit on it inadvertently and the most influential factor in children’s development isn’t money, or the lack thereof. It’s the health and wel-being of their parents - emotional, mental and physical. The only thing that’s worse for children than having one parent who constantly stresses about money, is having TWO parents who constantly stress about money.

If low-income, social welfare lifers or ethnic minorities are having the most children, that’s an indication that it’s not a question of affordability, it’s a question of choice - working people aren’t having large families because they’re choosing not to have large families. Not because people can’t afford them, but because they have different priorities and make different choices for themselves.