Was having a bit of technical difficulty earlier so I’m not sure if you saw my other response so I’ll copy it here for you.

Again tinytobe, there’s two separate points there, one for a well regulated militia and one for people’s rights. Obviously the two other commas are for punctuation, otherwise it wouldn’t make sense. Commas have multiple functions, one of them being a substitute for the word “and”. At the end of the day, your interpretation completely ignores the phrase “shall not be infringed” and is hence, a fundamentally flawed opinion.

The US is the country of unlimited possibilities.

And not without it's share of faults and ridiculous laws too.

ESP with its adult age malarkey.Brought home to me when I couldn't get a beer in a bar at 18, where I was used to drinking beer since I was 12 in Germany, where it's considered a foodstuff,[since 14th century]not an alcoholic beverage.Or going out with some US marines on my 25th birthday to a lap dancing club,at Oceanside,CA and all these 19 or 20-year-old Marines having to borrow their older fellow grunts military ID and names and quickly memorising their social security numbers to get in to have a beer.

These were lads fresh back from Somalia who had been literally 4 days before in combat bringing peace and superior firepower to Somalia[9months before the Blackhawk down incident] driving around in million-dollar hardware and operating full auto stuff.

But couldn't get a beer, buy a lottery ticket, or go look at some scantily clad single moms on stage, or purchase or own a personal handgun in California!!! It can be a strange place alright.

It doesn’t need to have the word “and”. Even as a single sentence it say the right to arms should not be infringed. That right is what gives them the option to form a militia. But there’s nothing that says they must do so to avail of that right.

In order for it to actually say that, you’d need to add a few more words to that effect

The chances of US citizens overthrowing the government is zero. People have formed militias, if they acted on it they are wiped out effortlessly.

Considering that the amount of armed US citizens who are just hunters alone outnumber the biggest standing army of the world, being in manpower the Chinese army by 2to 1...Umm...how about NO?

This is actually one of the US govts biggest fears,an armed insurrection by civilians.It has been war-gamed numerous times in the Pentagon,and every time they have tried it under different scenarios, it comes up for the Govt "YOU LOSE! GAME OVER!.Even with possibly up to 75% of the US Armed forces refusing to act against civilians in such a situation as they would consider it going against the Oath of Allegiance. By and large, these militias or groupings claiming to be such are of all political hues and skin colours and creeds have one thing in common, the signal for them to start kicking off is an attempt by the US govt to enact nationwide gun confiscation.

Historically the 2nd A didn’t help those who were persecuted. It hasn’t stopped home invasions, murders, community violence. It’s not going to either.

Ahem...ever hear of the battle of Athens, Tennessee in 1946? Where the 2A and the militia was actually put into practical use? Or a more up to date event was in the LA riots in 1992 and the phenomena of the "Rooftop Koreans"? Both practical examples of "unorganised militias" using the 2A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWMj-mFUDGA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz-Chm4d188

That's incorrect. The constitution is federal, or more specifically it sets the boundaries of federal law. It's up to each state to interpret the constitution in state laws. There is nothing in American law that states all laws/regulations pertaining to the constitution have to be federal. Regardless, your point was about a militia needing to be regulated, trained etc. Ho does any of the above apply. As I pointed out, the ability to form a militia needs to be an option, nowhere does it say that militia membership is a requirement to obtain a right.

And yes, there are laws who, what, how of firearms. Those are decided by each state as being in acceptable. If you are arguing that they infringe the 2A, then the solution would be less regulation not more. A complete free for all. Which seems contrary to your point.

Well, of course it is open to interpretation, as is any constitution. That's kind of the point of a constitution. To give guidance and set limits for governance and legislation. Quoting the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court;

But the constitution says that the RTBA shall not be infringed, it doesn't say or imply that there should never be any law to regulate firearms.

I agree with that definition of assault rifle, it's the one the military uses. I'm not sure if Military assault rifle is a misnomer in itself. There are other legal definitions too, really that discussion is just semantics though.

Well, you wouldn't be walking about Dianne Feinstein's and Nancy Pelosi's constituency of SanFransisco with a "military assault rifle" in the 1st place.As an assault rifle is a Full auto select fire capable rifle, California is not a Class 3 state.IOW you can't own any of the following there. Select fire, silencers, sawn-off shotguns or rifles,or destructive devices,and no one will even sell you to a California address. Or even start the paperwork.

Also at that level they are town ordinances,not state laws.So they are null and void the moment you leave the towns or county's limits.Also they are very changeable by the citizens themselves if you run for local mayor or sheriff, which anyone can do over there,on that ticket of repealing or adding laws to your cause.

You think US technological superiority is isolated to Bombs, rules and drones? This is pretty misinformed tbh. They are have better everything, comms, systems, structure, vehicles, facilities etc.

I agree with all of that. But its doesn't counter anything I said. The US is extremely well armed, many are overweight gits with AR15 and can barely more, but many are highly trained current or former military, police etc. If they were to unite agaisnt a single power, say a foreign invasion as your example. They would absolutely be a modern viet cong. If they all simultaneously rebelled it would be an uncontrollable force. But that is an incredibly difficult task to coordinate and pull off. Which is what I said it has zero chance of happening.

Just because something is possible, does not mean it has probably to any degree.

My point was that it is not true and it comes from a movie.

Have there been wargames where they lose, sure. Are these realistic, probably not. Have they also been many many wargames where the rebellion is crushed, also yes. Saying they they lose every time or close to every time is absurd.

I completely see your point, but as I pointed out it does both ways. The above overs and order to cease arms. Which I didn't actually mention btw. We were speaking of a rebellion, and if there was a rebellion of the scale you are talking about, ie millions of people, then the US would absolutely declare a state of emergency and a civil war. So the whole country is caught between the various oaths they have kept. As soon as somebody is in open war with the United States, their allegiance isn't worth piss. Some of the US armed forces would side with the side who thinks creating a militia is the highest right. The other side would put allegiance to the US higher. It would split. We have literally seen this in our own country with the last 100 years.

I took that line of the constitution to refer to the lines of civilian support during way. ie People aiding the country by working in factories making weapons, clothes, rations, etc etc. This as a huge of part of warfare in 1700-1960s. Sell so now, but still applies to a degree. I don't follow the jump to the Posse Comitatus act from there.

But as you mention it, Posse Comitatus act applied to the Army*, not to the National guard or the FBI etc. The national guard is state based, not federal. But I don't think it would apply to a civil war in either case.

(*Since then the Air Force was added, and DoD follows that policy for Navy, Marines, etc. although they are not named)

That's precisely my point. If a civil war did happen, there would be such a power grab, that they would go at each other just as quickly. Using your LA Riots example. Citizens were attacking and killing citizens. People go feral pretty quickly given the opportunity. A bit of snow and we raid the bread and toilet roll.

They wouldn't think twice about shooting a terrorist "gun nut". Nor should they. But shooting civilians who haven't broken any laws or harmed anyone is a different story.

Not sure who you refer to in as the ATF thug. Waco was definitely botched. The FBI was heavy handed, and covered t up. Some innocent people were killed. Mainly naïve followers who were brainwashed the the religious cult and knew no different.

But let's be really clear that David Koresh was a serial child rapist, who broke the law, and initiated the siege by refuse a lawful search warrant, a warrant that would have uncovered his illegal stockpile of arms. I think anyone holding up David Koresh as a victim of tyranny might need to think about it.

You think US technological superiority is isolated to Bombs, rules and drones? This is pretty misinformed tbh. They are have better everything, comms, systems, structure, vehicles, facilities etc.

Indeed thy do, but what good is state-of-the-art comms and wonders of technology against a bunch of people who hardly if ever use a phone, and are smart enough to ditch it after using it only once. Or rely on memorised messages sent by a human courier with a cutout? What good is your Reaper drone flying over the Rockies looking for a guerrilla group and it accidentally targets a couple of families out camping for the weekend? Is every chat between two moms who don't agree with their kids school policies of Critical Race,or not injecting them against COVID going to be subject to intense ELINT scrutiny,as they are now considered "right Wing terrorists"?https://www.heritage.org/crime-and-justice/commentary/are-parents-being-tagged-domestic-terrorists-the-fbi-justice

As I said,the military hardware is negated if they had to use it on US soil itself. Even our lot hardly ever used the phone in NI to discuss anything of import,or even kept anything on paper all this technology is vulnerable too,as Russia is finding out in Ukraine were some "missile hunters" are knocking out 5million euro Russian missiles with a E20 worth of ammo from a 50 cal rifle,by shooting a hole in its side damaging the propulsion or electronics.Missiles are very thin-skinned and delicate when on the launcher and very vulnerable. Point is over reliance on tech is not a sure-fire win either and this is a common US mistake.

I agree with all of that. But its doesn't counter anything I said. The US is extremely well armed, many are overweight gits with AR15 and can barely more, but many are highly trained current or former military, police etc. If they were to unite agaisnt a single power, say a foreign invasion as your example. They would absolutely be a modern viet cong. If they all simultaneously rebelled it would be an uncontrollable force. But that is an incredibly difficult task to coordinate and pull off. Which is what I said it has zero chance of happening.

I doubt anyone is overweight in the US armed forces mandatory fitness requirements every 6 months see to that.You are just making my point and still don't know what leaderless resistance in guerrilla warfare is?You keep thinking this has to be or will be organised,controlled and commanded by some central authority? That doesn't happen in a modern guerrilla war.

 completely see your point, but as I pointed out it does both ways. The above overs and order to cease arms. Which I didn't actually mention btw. We were speaking of a rebellion, and if there was a rebellion of the scale you are talking about, ie millions of people, then the US would absolutely declare a state of emergency and a civil war. So the whole country is caught between the various oaths they have kept. As soon as somebody is in open war with the United States, their allegiance isn't worth piss. Some of the US armed forces would side with the side that thinks creating a militia is the highest right. The other side would put allegiance to the US higher. It would split. We have literally seen this in our own country with the last 100 years.

There is only ONE oath if you are LE,military or a US citizen.How it is interpreted is up to you.

Your point being, as this is stating the obvious?

I took that line of the constitution to refer to the lines of civilian support during way.

Thats the Oath of Allegiance, not the constitution

People aiding the country by working in factories making weapons, clothes, rations, etc etc. This as a huge of part of warfare in 1700-1960s. Sell so now, but still applies to a degree. I don't follow the jump to the Posse Comitatus act from there.

It means both.

The reason I mentioned Posse Comitatus in this is that militarisation of federal forces and federalisation of police forces is eroding this part of the oath by claiming that you as a soldier or officer must follow a lawful direction of a Federal[civilian] agent in important work. Posse Comitatus specifically prohibits US armed forces personnel from being used in a law enforcement role, irrespective of branch and that also includes using military equipment. Does this then leave the question open is the National Gaurd, as it has been used and is used in combat roles, globally in American conflicts, actually under military command or state command? Hence the conflict of interest? this is still the question in Waco, was it legal for the guard to allow the use of their equipment?

That's precisely my point. If a civil war did happen, there would be such a power grab, that they would go at each other just as quickly. Using your LA Riots example. Citizens were attacking and killing citizens. People go feral pretty quickly given the opportunity. A bit of snow and we raid the bread and toilet roll.

And the 1st thing to go would be the power in America's horribly vulnerable power grid. So imagine cities like DC, NYC,LA without power for months? And you as the gun-banning president are going to have to figure out how to keep law and order and the food supplied and the toilets flushing in those chaotic hell holes.Id hate to be the main door kicker of the SWAT team in those house to house gun grabs under those circumstances!Most of your forces will be tied up just in policing the cities and internment camps than chasing the Wolverines[another movie mention for ya!] around the Rockies or going after the Bayou French down in Lousianna.[Southern Comfort]

They wouldn't think twice about shooting a terrorist "gun nut". Nor should they. But shooting civilians who haven't broken any laws or harmed anyone is a different story.

Vicky Weaver holding a 6-month baby,and her son Sammy Weaver, after masked and armed men prowling about the property and then shot his dog sure fit that description?

Not sure who you refer to in as the ATF thug. Waco was definitely botched. The FBI was heavy handed, and covered t up. Some innocent people were killed. Mainly naïve followers who were brainwashed the religious cult and knew no different.

Heavy-handed is an understatement! Using a tear gas dispensing armoured combat engineer vehicle to pump gas into a building,with the wind blowing against the tanks back,which meant the gas was having no effect as it was blowing straight out again,and using it as a battering ram on a wooden church where they knew there were flammable materials and lanterns in use...Yeah you could say that!

David Chipman was Bidens nomination for director of the ATF, it is questionable whether he did an unbiased job of investigating the Waco affair and was a horrible choice for director of the ATF https://www.nssf.org/articles/heres-why-david-chipman-is-a-terrible-choice-for-atf-director/

But let's be really clear that David Koresh was a serial child rapist, who broke the law, and initiated the siege by refuse a lawful search warrant, a warrant that would have uncovered his illegal stockpile of arms. I think anyone holding up David Koresh as a victim of tyranny might need to think about it.

Each and every one of those points has been proven FALSE a long time ago. Even if they were true at the time BATF is not child protection services or the Drug Enforcement Agency,as the other excuse was they had a meth lab on the premises.Those two organisations could have acted on those accusations instead if it had been true. BATF even admitted that this was over reach in serving a warrant,that could have been executed with the Sheriff of Waco who was on good terms with Koresh, and even if they felt there was the chance of hostility, could have lifted Koresh almost anytime he was in Waco ,or out on a regular morning jog around the compound.

Janet Reno was fed a line about child abuse and it was used as a cover-up for the botched raid by BATF. BATF needed to prove their worth after their other balls up at Ruby Ridge a year before and were looking at severe congressional fund cutting and investigation as their worth as a tax drain on the US taxpayer.

Waco and the Branch Davidians ticked all the boxes for a good publicity raid. Why else would they have brought along live TV news crews to cover a raid? They also had a federal firearms license to deal in firearms too.Nor were any fully automatic weapons ever found either in the ruins, as you could be sure the Feds would have trumpeted that fact all over MSM... I was living in CA at the time this seige happened,and they were discussing every last thing during and post the siege on MSM.Once the fact came out that the "arsenal of fully auto weapons and grenades" came out as false that quietly went away.

Suggest a watch of Waco Rules of engagement,and Waco new revelations,as a good grounder of what did and did not happen there in Americas greatest church burning.

I see the EX TD Mr "Ill smoke wherever I want to..It's my right!!" Gun banner John Deasey is gobbling off again in the Indo today about "the creeping proliferation of the weapons again" and being a big cry baby😭 about protest mail he got back then...🙄 He'd know about "hate mail" if he was a pro-gun politician. 🤣 Any hoo ,if anyone actually pays that rag formerly known as the Independent news paper

UPDATE.. Found something intresting in this article,and it could be big trouble LEGALLY for the author under our changed defamation legislation.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/the-hate-mail-was-worth-it-says-former-td-who-led-the-push-against-handgun-ownership-in-ireland-41744017.html

Thanks for copying the article Grizz, even if it is against the forum rules. I could never justify the one euro for a media organisation that publishes sh*te like that. The entire article just goes to show that Deasy has no f*cking clue what he's on about. Any update on the Firearms Expert Committee?

If only our lads would take a leaf out of the Polish PM's book...

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1536301391106408453?t=vjFY_Fi-Ijey8iCedOpYYA&s=09