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How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,687 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Is Boris giving Donaldson enough wriggle room to get out of the Assembly mess he has walked himself into? (Unionist strategy again!)

    Donaldson knows he cannot win so needs something to save face. Boris coming on Monday suggests something is afoot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,680 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I need to be consistent and condemn the language used by the attorney general the other day while staying it was legal to override the protocol. She said

    “Her submission also details “societal unrest” and cites hoax bomb attacks, including one targeting Simon Coveney, the Irish foreign minister.”

    this is reckless and dangerous. The organisation that left the hoax for coveney is bound to be cock-a-hoop upon hearing this. Whilst this is an isolated statement, it is the same argument that nationalists and Leo were making for 2 years to get the checks placed at the Irish Sea. Those threats worked and clearly the threat from loyalists is also working. Dangerous stuff



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,974 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Why would Boris help them though? They cant give him anything and the more this mess drags on the more cover he has for partygate or whatever his next scandal is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,687 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Britain placed the checks on the Irish Sea...nobody else/ Their idea, their solution, signed off by the queen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,687 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Boris is helping himself, I was reading that he wants leverage on services and he wants to placate the ERG, you can be sure his motives are entirely selfish.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,974 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Ohh I full expect everything he does to be based solely in a selfish how does it help him thought process, I just couldn't see how this would do that.

    Regarding the ERG, the DUP and NI are a complete red herring for them as well imo, they couldn't give a feck about either and anytime they seem to support them it is all to further their own English nationalistic goals



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,687 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The ERG want him to stand up to the EU. This pretence will keep them happy for another while.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Why is it the EU's responsibility to find solutions to choices the UK makes?



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Unionists don't have a huge argument any longer for staying with the Uk.

    Economically a United Ireland in the EU makes better sense.

    Socially we are no longer ardent Catholics.

    However they would have to guaranteed political influence. Perhaps make it a condition to have three unionist ministers in every Irish government for 20 year's or so.

    Or the devolved assembly in the North continue for a set period.

    The Brits would have to provide subsidy for a set period too. Perhaps a decade.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    People are people. We have emotions.

    But there is also morality. We abandoned Catholic nationalists. We pretended to be interested in a united Ireland but were not really.

    We knew they were being treated appallingly but turned a blind eye.

    We condemned them when they decided to use political violence. The same violence this state was founded on. Yes violence went on way too long. But we forget it took FF about 13 years to turn its back on the IRA


    But times changed. IRELAND became Liberal and inclusive.

    To simply decide this issue on economics would be poor moral judgement.



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  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Personally Id like to see the DUP in southern politics.

    Anything goes liberalism is running riot in the south. They would act as a brake on that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,880 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Who gets to adjudicate on the strength of the unionist case? A lot of people would have said there wasn't a strong argument for Ireland seceding from the UK in 1922, that Ireland & Britain together made more sense...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,680 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Some of you seem to think most politicians, apart from Boris, are not in this for their own interests. A tad naive I reckon.

    I don’t care what his motives are. It’s the outcome I’m interested in.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Geography. We are a separate island and separate people. If unionists want to stay in the Uk let only those areas with an over whelming unionist majority can stay with the Uk.

    Let each county vote.

    Northern Ireland. It doesn't even have the most northern part of Ireland in it.

    It's just a back of the envelope made up place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,250 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Geography is exactly what ties us to our neighbouring island - economically, historically (long before the 800 years blah blah), linguistically and culturally.

    We can't escape our geography nor can we escape our history.

    To adapt Mary Harney's description: we are closer to Birmingham than we are to Berlin or Boston.

    And no amount of wishful thinking can or will change this situation.

    Joint membership of the EU suited both islands, the day the Brexit vote passed, that was the wrecker.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,680 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I guess you apply the same logic to the ‘back of the envelope’ Scotland



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,546 ✭✭✭Quitelife


    The DUP are never going to agree to a Sinn Fein first Minister, they will use every excuse possible, its the protocol now it'll be something else after that.

    They know the Southern Governments are weak and soft and ultimately will stand idly by like they always have , get ready for another 100 years of Partition on this island.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 514 ✭✭✭FraserburghFreddie


    I agree, did you see McDonald elbowing O'neill out of the way to be first on stage last week?-It was hilarious,she's so obsessed with her own importance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,880 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    If unionists want to stay in the Uk let only those areas with an over whelming unionist majority can stay with the Uk.

    Let each county vote.

    Republicans have always rejected out of hand anything along these lines. It would mean the country would never be fully unified....



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,449 ✭✭✭nigeldaniel


    If we wish to consider a United Ireland and a unionist voice and vote, we must first be willing to listen to them and not cut them off halfway through what they are saying. There is far too much hostility in the press and invoices in general in the Republic for any unionist to feel remotely interested in getting involved in the republic. If you stick a finger up to someone you cant expect them to like you.

    Dan.



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    People have a problem with the DUP and people like downcow moreso than unionists in general.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,872 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Listen to what exactly? The DUP have been peddling the same odious drivel in response to the crisis they helped manufacture. They deserve all the scorn they get for that reason.

    Nobody is taking shots at working class unionists. If downcow and others want to spout outright falsehoods here, they can expect to get called out on it.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,687 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What is it you are listening to from belligerent Unionism that you think is worth listening to? What would you be willing to do to 'make them like you'?

    There is nothing to fear from moderate Unionism and they have no problem engaging with people here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,680 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Who are these ‘unionists in general’. The dup represent more unionists than any other party. Then there is the TUV which is the fastest growing unionist party, which I guess you don’t like either. And then there is the UUP which I regard myself as and have almost always voted for since the late 90s, and you don’t like my stance

    so do you mean that unionists who vote for Alliance are the only ones that are ok?



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I meant the actual politicians, not the general voters of these parties.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    When exactly have unionists not been listened to? Who exactly has cut them off while they were talking?

    Unionists have had a dominant voice for decades. Now that everyone can have an equal voice, the unionists are against that. They make excuses to shut down the executive. They make demands to change what they put in place without putting forwards any workable solutions.The NIP is there because of the unionists. The NIP is there not because the people of NI wanted it but because unionists wanted Brexit despite the ample warnings that it would create a mess (which it has done). This mess has been foisted on the people of NI who did not want Brexit but were given an economic lifeline in order to maintain the peace and stability. It is the unionists who are trying to damage this.

    Nobody has given unionists the finger except the British government! But for some bizarre reason, the unionists never seem to see them doing it despite it being completely obvious.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,680 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Well I am no dup supporter but you need to accept that it was not them created the gfa arrangements and the assembly. They are now simply utilising rules others made (and sf utilised for 3 years) to progress the wishes of their voters. They are simply abiding by the promises they made pre election. Sam Mcbride was saying the other night on tv that the dup dare not go into the assembly until there are actual actions and changes or the electorate will not forgive them.

    All we need is a wee bit of consistency and equality from posters. The dup are entirely entitled to use the system for the benifit of their voters.

    ironically had jim Alistair been listened to on his calls for doing away with mandatory coalition and have a coalition of the willing, then unionists would be in a very week position today and the executive would be in full operation.

    having said that, I do believe mandatory coalition should be scrapped at whatever point we get out of this mess.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,687 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jim Allister was loudest, not in objecting to the Protocol but in calls to vote for him because he would NOT nominate a SF first minister.


    Allister a democrat? Away up the yard.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Well I am no dup supporter but you need to accept that it was not them created the gfa arrangements and the assembly. They are now simply utilising rules others made (and sf utilised for 3 years) to progress the wishes of their voters. They are simply abiding by the promises they made pre election. Sam Mcbride was saying the other night on tv that the dup dare not go into the assembly until there are actual actions and changes or the electorate will not forgive them.

    The DUP have been against the GFA and given their actions, one could easily come to the conclusion that they simply don't want nationalists to be given equality.

    As for their pre-election promises, they made promises against the NIP but it was they who created the need for the NIP. For them to campaign on removing something they helped create (despite the wishes of the people of NI) is utter hypocrisy.

    All we need is a wee bit of consistency and equality from posters. The dup are entirely entitled to use the system for the benifit of their voters.

    How does anyone in NI benefit from having no assembly?



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