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Sentencing, Murder and Hate Crimes

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  • 13-04-2022 3:27pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭


    I am confused.

    The Justice Minister wants to introduced harder sentences for murders whose motives are based hate or prejudices. Have we become so lenient with sentencing murderers that you have to add extra crimes to their crime of murder(s)?

    Am I the only one who think criminal always look for excuses to commit crime?

    Time we had a mandatory sentence of life for murder.


    ______

    Just one more thing .... when did they return that car

    Yesterday



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭mikethecop


    do we not already ? have mandatory life sentence for murder i mean,

    the legal industry itself will veto any real change in justice as it would adversely effect their profits


    shitty way to be i agree



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭RoTelly


    So what is the minister for justice talking about!


    ______

    Just one more thing .... when did they return that car

    Yesterday



  • Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock




  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    She wasn't referring specifically to murder, she was referring to any crime motivated by hate. The implication being that if someone is punished more harshly the first time, then they may not go on to commit worse crimes motivated by the same hate.

    Like you say, you can't get a worse punishment for murder regardless of motivation. We do have mandatory life sentences for murder.

    I'm not in favour of a "life without parole" sentencing option, though I would like to see considerably more transparency around how and why murderers are released in the first place.

    If we don't believe that someone is capable of change, then why lock them up at all? Why not a bullet in the head and be done with it? Because the justice system is based on the reality that people can change and it is incumbent on society to show moral superiority and give people that chance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Its also about a form of justice. I'm at more risk of being targeted with a homophobic hate crime then you. You probably wont be ever beaten up or murdered because you are heterosexual. If I get beaten up while someone is shouting homophobic abuse its very very different to me being beaten up without that abuse. The impact on me as a target or victim is much stronger who was targeted because of sexuality is much stronger.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Registered Users Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    No, but if you are both men you could randomly be beaten up, or worse, on a night out in Dublin.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Of course. Anyone can. But the impact on hate crime victims is worse because they are targeted because of who they are.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭RoTelly


    But they can be reformed right?

    I think I am morally superior to a Murderer, those poor murderers always murdering, 5 years in jail should sort them out.... right?

    She was talking about the report into a alleged hate murder, which if caught would result in a mandatory life sentence ... with parole. Unless hate murder should be execution or life without parole!


    ______

    Just one more thing .... when did they return that car

    Yesterday



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    No point asking her either, she probably has no clue too



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    We do have mandatory life sentence for murder. What are you talking about



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  • Registered Users Posts: 46 ShamanRing


    I don’t buy into this. Every assault is driven by some form of hate. Should the punishment for the crime for targeting you because of your sexuality be more severe than let’s say, someone targeting me because I’m ginger, or ‘dressed like a posh ****’, or because I’m Irish (I live abroad)?



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Yes, you are morally superior to a murderer. Which is why you don't execute them for murder.

    Anyway, I can see you're mostly here for the rant. Nobody gets five years for murder in Ireland, and the fact of the matter is that murderers have one of the lowest recidivism rates there are. It is very, very rare for someone to be convicted of murder after being released. Of the small number who fall foul of the law again, it's usually public order offences or road traffic offences rather than violent crime.

    There is no basis for "life means life" sentences for murder, nothing extra to be gained. It won't make people less likely to commit murder and won't stop crime.



  • Registered Users Posts: 665 ✭✭✭goldenmick


    For murder...

    Life should mean life

    Sod the rehabilitation, you should never come out

    YOU terminated someones life, permanently

    YOURS should also be terminated permanently

    Sadly there's no death sentence... so WHOLE LIFE imprisonment it should be



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,973 ✭✭✭DoctorEdgeWild


    There is one thing extra to be gained, if somebody is locked up for life, or executed (although I know that's a subject for another thread!) then there's no way they can commit a crime directly against any person outside that jail ever again. In that regard, life meaning life, or indeed execution, has a recidivism rate against the general public of 0%.

    I think we'd probably agree on far more than we'd disagree judging by your post but thought that was one thing worth mentioning.



  • Registered Users Posts: 86,347 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    Life should mean Life, in a shed hell hole



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭WrenBoy


    Scenario: An assault on a gay man by a straight man.

    Should this crime carry a more severe punishment if the straight man has no idea of the sexual orientation of the victim ?

    Lets just say they have never met before and there was an exchange of insults over a football match or something.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,973 ✭✭✭DoctorEdgeWild


    Should a crime be punished on the basis of what impact it had on the victim? Or should a crime be punished based on the crime itself? I think that's a question worth exploring. If I steal from Elon Musk, or from a homeless person, should my punishment be less/more, even if the crimes are identical?



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    No

    The person wasnt targeted because of their sexual orientation.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Sure, but if we just killed everyone who ever committed a crime, the recidivism rate would be zero. Sure let's just purge everyone. No people, no crime.

    I see the point, but I don't think it's a particular gotcha. People commit crimes. Even if every single criminal was locked up for life, crime would still happen. Look at the US; 0.66% of the entire population is currently in prison (8 times higher than Ireland), and yet there's still crime everywhere.

    Keeping an already small number of murderers in prison for life has no real gain to Irish society. It's a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the total crimes committed. And they're usually not violent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Both. The crime itself and the impact on the victim. If you still 200 Euro off Elon Musk it wont have the same effect as stealing 200 euro off a homeless person. The crime itself doesnt happen in a vacuum where there are no consequences.

    Why do you think we now have victim impact statements read out in court.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Let me get this straight: there's a difference between a "hate" murder and a "nothing personal but you're in my way" murder, which is not motivated by hate?

    So somebody gets irritated by a couple of ostentatiously gay guys flirting and bitching with each other and each doing a bad attempt at being Graham Norton and finally decides to clock one of them to shut them up, the guy resists and a real fight develops that sees the gay guy severely beaten and disfigured, so much so that he dies. That's a hate crime?

    Whereas a burglar gets disturbed while rummaging through a house by somebody who sees his face so the burglar hits him with a poker several times to ensure he will never be able to pick him out of a line up. That's not a hate crime?

    They're both murder, or at the very least if the accused is VERY lucky, they're both manslaughter. I don't see how one should be elevated in seriousness over the other.

    But if "hate crimes" are to be promoted over "ordinary decent criminal just doing his job" crimes in terms of public opprobrium and sentencing, well that's not going to end well for the very minorities that are most susceptible to those "hate" crimes in the first place.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Another scenario would be if someone attacked me and called me names inferring I was gay while doing so, would it be classed as a more serious crime, even though I am straight?

    If someone attacked me and called me a fat bastard or baldy fucker while doing so, is that a more serious crime?

    Is it a lesser crime if someone attacks you but while doing so is shouting that they are accepting of your sexual orientation and whatever gender you identify as?

    If someone is actively seeking gay people to assault because they are gay or a black person because they are black, then yeah, that's a hate crime right there. If someone says something offensive about someones sexuality/race, but the motive of the attack is not their sexuality, then no, I don't see how that could be classed as a more serious crime.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭RoTelly


    While I know you showing two very different muggings, I don't think you'd be much worse of as a criminals in either case. And what if the mugger is also homeless or what if they themselves are a millionaire.

    Do we now dole out sentances based on both the demographic of the victim and the criminal?

    If a homeless person steels 200 euro from another homeless person?


    ______

    Just one more thing .... when did they return that car

    Yesterday



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,973 ✭✭✭DoctorEdgeWild


    I think your first point is just heading towards reductio ad absurdum there, it's not really needed with me, but I know that some of the posters on here can drive anyone in that direction! 😀


    There's rarely a 'Gothca' in anything to do with such a crime, thankfully murder itself being a very rare and violent crime.

    The gain to Irish society is justice itself being done. I accept that justice is a concept and as such harder to point at and say 'Hey look, there's some justice' but allowing someone to return to free society, without restriction after perpetrating what most of us would agree is the very top, top end of the crime scale seems... unjust?



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Well, first one probably manslaughter

    second one, there is a defence and the dwelling act, which states you can use force against an intruder in your home.

    So, no you didn't get it straight😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Huh? In the second scenario it was the burglar, not the person who disturbed them, that was the assailant. How can being the burglar entitle you to kill someone and claim self defence? Maybe that would work in America but they're all mad, Ted.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ah😊 read that wrong, but he would probably be charged with manslaughter too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,973 ✭✭✭DoctorEdgeWild


    I'd disagree with you on that, I believe that the crime itself is the most important factor to be considered by the judge/jury/whoever, rather than the impact. The impact is secondary, and by it's very nature, emotional. I've been very lucky, have not had many crimes committed against me, but the last one I can remember, I was absolutely furious, I would have done anything to feel like I was getting justice. But that doesn't make for good laws/justice. Emotion shouldn't come into law making/sentencing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Why shouldnt it be considered?

    For someone who has been violently raped their whole life could be spent in fear/traumatised/reliving it all/unable to build relationships/unable to forget what happened.

    If someone is beaten up because of who they are its a different matter than just being beaten up.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Registered Users Posts: 994 ✭✭✭rightmove


    I saw a program on a murder in london. Bunch of scrotes went out to cause mayhem one night. They killed a guy who worked in a local bar before assaulting a few others. https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/happy-slap-killer-freed-after-4-years-6804596.html

    during the program the police said they were looking at it as hate crime until they gang went on to assault the homeless guy who was straight apparently.

    It struck me that if they didnt assault the second guy they would be in more trouble for the first crime coz it could be judged to be a hate crime. I mean thats totally illogical. Makes no f*cking sense.

    so I guess after the crime in sligo if fair game to go after the men of ireland again like happened when that poor woman was killed in offaly. This time the media will go after ...straight white men ....or as they know them - the real enemy!



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