Sentencing, Murder and Hate Crimes

RoTelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925814#Comment_118925814

Whatchagonnado a criminals gonna crime.

Maybe start sending them to rehab courses.

So you've killed someone what next?

How to overcoming killing people a holistic approach?

So you've killed your children, 10 steps to coping without them because you killed them.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118922493#Comment_118922493

Is there any official reporting on the nature of the killings, have seen rumors but nothing from RTE

Ten of Swords

Mod - Do not discuss the Sligo murders, the case is before the courts right now

AllForIt

Yesterday the killer of the Conservative MP David Amess was handed down a whole life sentence. A whole life sentence means he will never be considered for parole and will spend his whole life in prison till the day he dies.

How anyone can say they are against whole life sentences is beyond me. The idea that this guy should be given an opportunity to reform and if so potentially released is to me, and I've chosen my words carefully here - completely immoral, rather than how some might think that is the moral think to do. He can reform all he likes of his own accord but he stays put. I don't believe for a second this guy has been 'radicalized'. It's just him, the way he is. Afaic it's whole life in prison or bullet to the head, one or the other.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-61094059

Rodin

Too many looking to create a hierarchy of victims.

Some people think prison is there to rehabilitate. I see prison as protecting wider society from crime. How many times do we see people with hundreds of convictions.

Personally I don't give a damn about rehabilitation because I'd have a sliding scale of every increasing sentencing for each offence.

For murder the punishment should be life without parole. The victim's family get a whole life sentence. Why shouldn't the perpetrator?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929026#Comment_118929026

No opportunity for parole and no chance of being let out?

Don't see the point in keeping him alive in that case

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929163#Comment_118929163

Well at least he gets to suffer in prison for a very very long time. Personally I'd prefer the bullet. The thought of spending the rest of my live in prison makes me shudder.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929224#Comment_118929224

Me too, but I don't like the thoughts of paying for that pricks food until he dies.

patsfan1286

Apparently part and parcel of living in Ireland involves no reporting of obvious facts

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929052#Comment_118929052

Even though this is not my forum, and this has the potential to drag the discussion off topic, I’m happy to do some digging on behalf of the local mods given they are so busy. Section 4.5 of the site’s Terms of Use answers your question. It says:

‘We expect you to act responsibly in posting Material on Boards.ie. You agree, through use of this service, NOT to use boards.ie to:

• post Material in respect of any matter that is currently before the courts”

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118921857#Comment_118921857

I fully agree and the minimum sentence for a paedophile or rapist should be when the victim says they have recovered from the ordeal.

whatchagonnado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118927654#Comment_118927654

Look, all research and evidence points to education and rehabilitation being a better path than punishment for all of society, including you, as you're less likely to be the victim of a crime in the future. But it seems you'd rather more crime in exchange for the joy you feel from punishment.

whatchagonnado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929163#Comment_118929163

The point is to make people feel better because they aren't living in a death penalty state. As you say, quite what the difference is, is unclear. Unless it turns out it wasn't him but Scooby Doo character in a mask.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058241532/sentencing-murder-and-hate-crimes

Basically it takes a to of money to keep people in prison... It takes another ton of money to support the free legal aid... The system needs to be overhauled but it wont happen... I seen there lately where a senior retires Gardai got free legal... it should be taxed on his property if he has one...

malinheader

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929912#Comment_118929912

Totally 100% disagree with the research if it exists .No education or rehabilitation will cure paedophiles ,rapists and just so called scumbags who think the world owes them a living and would kill someone for their gains or just fun. To much of this stupid rehabilitation crap.to many in the courts appearing for their 20 or 30th crimes. The law protects the scumbags more than the ordinary people. Time for big changes.

.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925651#Comment_118925651

there a too many people going around with 80+ convictions and make it big with their 81st, society is playing pass the hand grenade.

whatchagonnado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929966#Comment_118929966

Disagreeing with research! Classic. Do your own research, or reference some that supports your position. But until you do or can, it's an opinion based on nothing.

conorhal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118921716#Comment_118921716

That's what a victim impact statement at sentencing is for. Hate is not a crime, it's a motivation. Convicting people for a motive is a daft idea and a slippery slope towards totalitarianism.

whatchagonnado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118930180#Comment_118930180

Yes. Everyone commenting in this thread could do themselves a a favour and read this: https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Barrister-Stories-Law-Broken/dp/1509841105

malinheader

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118930062#Comment_118930062

Might be better asking the people who are the victims of the re offenders. Not be hard to find some of these. I'm sure they would say rehabilitation works.

Only rehabilitation for paedophiles and there likes is by removing them from the planet in my opinion.

But hey perhaps we should just keep releasing them into society and unaware communities and hope for the best.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118930707#Comment_118930707

Sure, getting hysterical about potential reoffenders is much better. You cannot create a crime free society, no matter how much you tell yourself you can.

malinheader

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118931937#Comment_118931937

Who's hysterical.

Cannot believe some people are so naive thinking certain groups of sickos can be rehabilitated.

How would you feel about some so called rehabilitated child molester moving in beside you. Not that anyone tells you who they are or what they have done.

RoTelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118930062#Comment_118930062

If I agreed with capital punishment I could probably do some research that back up that position and reference it.

Its daft to think that in life that your opinions are pointless because you had no-one or no reference to back you up. Opinions are not facts. Facts may drive your opinion.

For example I believe that anyone executed for a crime did not go on to commit more crimes, I have nothing to back this up, and even if I did it wouldn't lead me to believe that capital punishment/execution is something that should be re-introduced.

Your also assume that people haven't read anything and are ignorant.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118930180#Comment_118930180

Many other countries have hate crime laws and are not totalitarian. Its really daft to suggest hate crime legslation is a step towards totalitarianism.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118932500#Comment_118932500

To be honest I couldn’t care less if someone like this moved in next to me.

Maybe you should be more concerned about the ones who haven’t been caught yet, because they are better at their game than their counterparts..

malinheader

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118934113#Comment_118934113

Well that says alot about you. Perhaps if we made a severe penalty for this certain crime we wouldn't have to worry as much about the ones not yet caught. But I fear its only going to get alot worse when there is people still oblivious to the truth that there is no cure for this scum. Perhaps you should advertise to take some of the rehabilitated into your home.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118934254#Comment_118934254

I can’t think of any reason to invite some stranger into my home, but thank you for the suggestion.

Look, I simply disagree with you that everyone who has offended in some shape of form will reoffend. Nobody here is saying that sexual preferences can be “cured”, but I don’t think everyone will certainly reoffend. But go ahead and be paranoid and angry if you enjoy it.

RoTelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118934363#Comment_118934363

Sounds like that could be interpreted as victim blaming! (... out of context...)

I don't believe that people will always reoffend either, but I do believe in stricter sentencing (and within that rehabilitation, including getting prisoners away from drug use if that has what has lead them to be in prison, along with further educational supports) and I believe that in cases of Murder life means life, it is the only crime as far as I know that carries life sentences, save for people serving back to back sentences for multiple crimes.

I don't agree with hate crimes as they don't protect anyone, and the guards of overstretched as it is. Hate crime often seems to read a like "precrime", but then I am not a person who uses offensive words or would ever thing of shouting at a perfect stranger because who I perceive them to be.

malinheader

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118934363#Comment_118934363

Not being paranoid but very taken aback. I have honestly ever heard of anyone who wouldn't mind a child molester moving into their area. Big chance to take gambling on these scumbags being rehabilitated. Do like what happens to a dog attacking sheep,make sure they never do it again. We all know once they get the taste they will always go again.

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118930062#Comment_118930062

you are making a classic mistake yourself. while there has now been thousands of research publications on this topic, it encompasses the whole gamut of crime. there is a clear argument that lower levels of crime deserve rehabilitation. its less clear cut when the topic of murder is brought up.

People who blather on about Norway forget that it has harsh licensing laws and follow ups. it has tagging, sign ons, forced work, and i´m pretty sure i read a lower tolerance for legal aid. its also a tiny country in comparison to America, which for all we know could be actually worse if it went down your path. i was in New York last week and its clear to see the liberal approach and the problems that are happening once the broken windows theory is thrown out. Less Police on the streets, dealing allowed on major streets because cops can be busted out for arrests gone south and helf liable etc. the only thing that saved New York was a harsher approach. Norway in a whole is not comparable (i know you didn´t mention Norway, but its always brought up in these arguments)

You present it as cut and dry research. its not. Breviks case is a perfect example. If Norway truly believed in their approach he would be free at some stage. but he won´t be because he murdered 77 people, mostly young teens and deserves absolutely nothing in return. Society is better for having a person like him locked up for life. in my World he would be shot.

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118930062#Comment_118930062

This 'research' you refer to is valueless. It's sociology, not real science. It's created by left-wing institutions that are committed to removing the element punishment from the justice system.

whatchagonnado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987587#Comment_118987587

Love this. A poster on Boards criticising hundreds, if not thousands, of research papers as being worthless due to 'left-wing institution' bias. If you didn't laugh, you'd cry.

If you have any research from 'right-wing institutions' (assuming they are your preferred institutions, and don't suffer from bias) that suggest longer/harsher sentences and punishments are better for society, do share.

whatchagonnado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118982795#Comment_118982795

You are making a classic mistake yourself too, is anyone really suggesting Brevik can and should walk? You've cherry picked an extreme mass terrorist murdering event as your example.

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987670#Comment_118987670

What does 'better for society' mean? How is it defined and measured?

This is the problem: you think this is physics. That there's a 'right answer', when we don't even agree on the question.

It's a matter of values, and mine are very different to yours, and very different to the people who run the research programmes you treasure so highly.

whatchagonnado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987706#Comment_118987706

Better for society = lower crime rates, less recidivism, less single parent families due to incarceration etc.

And I have to laugh at you asking for definitions and measures when you'd prefer your 'values' to trump it anyway! The hypocrisy!

RoTelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987718#Comment_118987718

You seem not to know what a debate is. Your opponent may not be your target audience.

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118987705#Comment_118987705

no i haven´t. so wheres it stop, 1,2,3 4 murders? Brevik is a pure example of and i use the word only in a loose sense; liberal hypocrisy. it either is or isn´t punishment. its a classic example. its like the Nuremburg trials and other things like that. sometimes the most sense is punishment for punishments sake.

You talk about the research as if its a cut and dried thing. as if America has totally got it wrong and should immediately try this new path. it would be unreal to see the result.

Its very easy for people like you in Ivory towers to talk about flowery languaged research papers.

there is huge issues in society. criminals weren´t born that way, capitalism, society has alot to answer for. Americas for profit prisons, the racial issues etc. However human beings are evolved gorillas, many of us are ignorant, unfit for society, dumb, poor, wasteful, greedy and ultimately evil. SOme of it is learned, some of it is inherent. you talk of a Utopia that will never ever exist. If the USA took an Icelandic approach i would imagine the issues would be more or less the same if not worse. and the people murdered, and their families could be happy in the knowledge that society is happier, despite there being no real working proof .

he won´t walk, but Arnfinn Nesset did.

Fandymo

https://m.independent.ie/regionals/dublin/fingal/balbriggan-woman-gets-two-year-suspended-sentence-for-stabbing-her-partner-in-the-torso-41633427.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=seeding&fbclid=IwAR1Vje9HRBv3wMdmXdpeK39zFc39e5SimuvA6ExQNpWZQhHFKKUMRa1lF7Q

Just read this. A year suspended sentence for going to someone’s apartment and stabbing them. It’s an absolute farce. Would it be the same sentence if the genders had been reversed??

Jequ0n

“A struggle ensued, during which Lynham stabbed Mr Black in the torso, creating a small wound and said: “I’ve stabbed you now, good enough.” The victim said he thought Lynham looked “crazy and out of it,” the court heard.”

”Paramedics were called for the victim, but he refused medical help. He treated himself with painkillers and saw his GP later. He has since made a full recovery”

Yes it must have been a horrific injury she caused there, lock her up for good..

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929912#Comment_118929912

All the evidence points to scumbags being kept in prison not being able to commit any more crimes against joe public

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042463#Comment_119042463

Been saying this years.

real scum need permanent removal.

the biggest problem is defining real scum…

as well as our society allowing real scum back onto the streets to hurt again.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042378#Comment_119042378

So leniency because she was too weak to do what she attempted to do??

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042641#Comment_119042641

According to the article the motive for the attack is unknown/ uncertain. There is likewise no suggestion that she was “too weak” to cause more damage. You are being dramatic.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042725#Comment_119042725

He and others in the apartment overpowered her and took the knife off her. Did she bring her own knife to his apartment to butter his toast for him??

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042735#Comment_119042735

Maybe she did. None of us here know. This is hardly a case of a hardened criminal who got away lightly.

jmayo

This is typical of this out of her depth minister.

It is all looking for likes from media and modern social justice and social media types.

It is in response to recent high profile killing of and attacks on homosexuals.

If she wanted to do something she would look at the disgrace that is our justice system where you have a rapist and triple murderer's consecutive life murder sentence commuted to a single life sentence.

The family still want to know which of the three lives was the only one that mattered.

Or you look at why the likes of Larry Murphy didn't even get a lfie sentence even though he was gulity of kidnapping, false imprisonment and multiple counts of rape on top of attempted murder.

They just pick one and sentence for that.

It is a fooking joke.

And as sure as fook, if she does even get her way with adding some term about hate crimes on top of murder charge, it will make diddly squat in terms of the actual sentence served as it will probably just be added concurrently.

This spanner that is minister likes to do things for likes not for the benefit of the people.

The sooner that waste of space is gone the better.

Potential-Monke

A crime is a crime. There is a set maximum sentence for each crime. That should be the minimum per case. Then, and only then, if the crime is motivated by hate or anything else, extend the sentence. Don't give other victims less value because they weren't targeted due to certain terms. But certainly give the criminal more time for using those as a reason to attack. I don't think Johnny or Mary who were randomly attacked to near death would be very happy if their suspect got less time just because they weren't [insert protected term here]. But I don't think they'd care if everyone got the same, and others got more due to their motivation.

And then, where do we draw the line. Do we stick with the current list of gender, sex, religion, etc, or can we add more as the time goes on? Someone else made the example, what if a ginger is constantly getting bullied by others, and eventually gets beaten to near death by scumbags because of his red hair (it has happened). Can they use this new hate crime legislation? If not, can hair colour be added? And if not, why not? (and yes, there is a hint of personal feelings in that one).

As I said, the max available sentence for each crime should be the standard minimum, and everything that caused the suspect to attack the victim be added on after that. But they won't do that. And as rightly pointed out by people, we don't have the will, Garda numbers or prison spaces for everyone. And the legal profession wouldn't want it like that anyway. And they seem to make the call somehow.

whatchagonnado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042463#Comment_119042463

You're advocating for a 3 strike type rule. That's worked well, hasn't it?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118921703#Comment_118921703

re: last paragraph (i cant believe i cant only quote relevant parts of a post on a phone btw, wtf)

removing antisocial offenders from wider society is an important function, and focusing only on whether we can change them or not is ignoring that- and a lot of aspirational thought on criminal justice also ignores it.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119050134#Comment_119050134

It's worked very well, scumbags in prison are not committing crimes against the general public/