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Sentencing, Murder and Hate Crimes

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  • Registered Users Posts: 38,415 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    I fully agree and the minimum sentence for a paedophile or rapist should be when the victim says they have recovered from the ordeal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭whatchagonnado


    Look, all research and evidence points to education and rehabilitation being a better path than punishment for all of society, including you, as you're less likely to be the victim of a crime in the future. But it seems you'd rather more crime in exchange for the joy you feel from punishment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭whatchagonnado


    The point is to make people feel better because they aren't living in a death penalty state. As you say, quite what the difference is, is unclear. Unless it turns out it wasn't him but Scooby Doo character in a mask.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    Basically it takes a to of money to keep people in prison... It takes another ton of money to support the free legal aid... The system needs to be overhauled but it wont happen... I seen there lately where a senior retires Gardai got free legal... it should be taxed on his property if he has one...



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    Totally 100% disagree with the research if it exists .No education or rehabilitation will cure paedophiles ,rapists and just so called scumbags who think the world owes them a living and would kill someone for their gains or just fun. To much of this stupid rehabilitation crap.to many in the courts appearing for their 20 or 30th crimes. The law protects the scumbags more than the ordinary people. Time for big changes.


    .



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,324 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    there a too many people going around with 80+ convictions and make it big with their 81st, society is playing pass the hand grenade.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭whatchagonnado


    Disagreeing with research! Classic. Do your own research, or reference some that supports your position. But until you do or can, it's an opinion based on nothing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭conorhal


    That's what a victim impact statement at sentencing is for. Hate is not a crime, it's a motivation. Convicting people for a motive is a daft idea and a slippery slope towards totalitarianism.



  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭whatchagonnado




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    Might be better asking the people who are the victims of the re offenders. Not be hard to find some of these. I'm sure they would say rehabilitation works.

    Only rehabilitation for paedophiles and there likes is by removing them from the planet in my opinion.

    But hey perhaps we should just keep releasing them into society and unaware communities and hope for the best.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,346 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    Sure, getting hysterical about potential reoffenders is much better. You cannot create a crime free society, no matter how much you tell yourself you can.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    Who's hysterical.

    Cannot believe some people are so naive thinking certain groups of sickos can be rehabilitated.

    How would you feel about some so called rehabilitated child molester moving in beside you. Not that anyone tells you who they are or what they have done.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭RoTelly


    If I agreed with capital punishment I could probably do some research that back up that position and reference it.

    Its daft to think that in life that your opinions are pointless because you had no-one or no reference to back you up. Opinions are not facts. Facts may drive your opinion.

    For example I believe that anyone executed for a crime did not go on to commit more crimes, I have nothing to back this up, and even if I did it wouldn't lead me to believe that capital punishment/execution is something that should be re-introduced.

    Your also assume that people haven't read anything and are ignorant.


    ______

    Just one more thing .... when did they return that car

    Yesterday



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,065 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Many other countries have hate crime laws and are not totalitarian. Its really daft to suggest hate crime legslation is a step towards totalitarianism.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,346 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    To be honest I couldn’t care less if someone like this moved in next to me.

    Maybe you should be more concerned about the ones who haven’t been caught yet, because they are better at their game than their counterparts..



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    Well that says alot about you. Perhaps if we made a severe penalty for this certain crime we wouldn't have to worry as much about the ones not yet caught. But I fear its only going to get alot worse when there is people still oblivious to the truth that there is no cure for this scum. Perhaps you should advertise to take some of the rehabilitated into your home.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,346 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    I can’t think of any reason to invite some stranger into my home, but thank you for the suggestion.

    Look, I simply disagree with you that everyone who has offended in some shape of form will reoffend. Nobody here is saying that sexual preferences can be “cured”, but I don’t think everyone will certainly reoffend. But go ahead and be paranoid and angry if you enjoy it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭RoTelly


    Sounds like that could be interpreted as victim blaming! (... out of context...)

    I don't believe that people will always reoffend either, but I do believe in stricter sentencing (and within that rehabilitation, including getting prisoners away from drug use if that has what has lead them to be in prison, along with further educational supports) and I believe that in cases of Murder life means life, it is the only crime as far as I know that carries life sentences, save for people serving back to back sentences for multiple crimes.

    I don't agree with hate crimes as they don't protect anyone, and the guards of overstretched as it is. Hate crime often seems to read a like "precrime", but then I am not a person who uses offensive words or would ever thing of shouting at a perfect stranger because who I perceive them to be.


    ______

    Just one more thing .... when did they return that car

    Yesterday



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    Not being paranoid but very taken aback. I have honestly ever heard of anyone who wouldn't mind a child molester moving into their area. Big chance to take gambling on these scumbags being rehabilitated. Do like what happens to a dog attacking sheep,make sure they never do it again. We all know once they get the taste they will always go again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    you are making a classic mistake yourself. while there has now been thousands of research publications on this topic, it encompasses the whole gamut of crime. there is a clear argument that lower levels of crime deserve rehabilitation. its less clear cut when the topic of murder is brought up.

    People who blather on about Norway forget that it has harsh licensing laws and follow ups. it has tagging, sign ons, forced work, and i´m pretty sure i read a lower tolerance for legal aid. its also a tiny country in comparison to America, which for all we know could be actually worse if it went down your path. i was in New York last week and its clear to see the liberal approach and the problems that are happening once the broken windows theory is thrown out. Less Police on the streets, dealing allowed on major streets because cops can be busted out for arrests gone south and helf liable etc. the only thing that saved New York was a harsher approach. Norway in a whole is not comparable (i know you didn´t mention Norway, but its always brought up in these arguments)

    You present it as cut and dry research. its not. Breviks case is a perfect example. If Norway truly believed in their approach he would be free at some stage. but he won´t be because he murdered 77 people, mostly young teens and deserves absolutely nothing in return. Society is better for having a person like him locked up for life. in my World he would be shot.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Nermal


    This 'research' you refer to is valueless. It's sociology, not real science. It's created by left-wing institutions that are committed to removing the element punishment from the justice system.



  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭whatchagonnado


    Love this. A poster on Boards criticising hundreds, if not thousands, of research papers as being worthless due to 'left-wing institution' bias. If you didn't laugh, you'd cry.

    If you have any research from 'right-wing institutions' (assuming they are your preferred institutions, and don't suffer from bias) that suggest longer/harsher sentences and punishments are better for society, do share.



  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭whatchagonnado


    You are making a classic mistake yourself too, is anyone really suggesting Brevik can and should walk? You've cherry picked an extreme mass terrorist murdering event as your example.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Nermal


    What does 'better for society' mean? How is it defined and measured?

    This is the problem: you think this is physics. That there's a 'right answer', when we don't even agree on the question.

    It's a matter of values, and mine are very different to yours, and very different to the people who run the research programmes you treasure so highly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭whatchagonnado


    Better for society = lower crime rates, less recidivism, less single parent families due to incarceration etc.

    And I have to laugh at you asking for definitions and measures when you'd prefer your 'values' to trump it anyway! The hypocrisy!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭RoTelly


    You seem not to know what a debate is. Your opponent may not be your target audience.


    ______

    Just one more thing .... when did they return that car

    Yesterday



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    no i haven´t. so wheres it stop, 1,2,3 4 murders? Brevik is a pure example of and i use the word only in a loose sense; liberal hypocrisy. it either is or isn´t punishment. its a classic example. its like the Nuremburg trials and other things like that. sometimes the most sense is punishment for punishments sake.

    You talk about the research as if its a cut and dried thing. as if America has totally got it wrong and should immediately try this new path. it would be unreal to see the result.

    Its very easy for people like you in Ivory towers to talk about flowery languaged research papers.

    there is huge issues in society. criminals weren´t born that way, capitalism, society has alot to answer for. Americas for profit prisons, the racial issues etc. However human beings are evolved gorillas, many of us are ignorant, unfit for society, dumb, poor, wasteful, greedy and ultimately evil. SOme of it is learned, some of it is inherent. you talk of a Utopia that will never ever exist. If the USA took an Icelandic approach i would imagine the issues would be more or less the same if not worse. and the people murdered, and their families could be happy in the knowledge that society is happier, despite there being no real working proof .

    he won´t walk, but Arnfinn Nesset did.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    https://m.independent.ie/regionals/dublin/fingal/balbriggan-woman-gets-two-year-suspended-sentence-for-stabbing-her-partner-in-the-torso-41633427.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=seeding&fbclid=IwAR1Vje9HRBv3wMdmXdpeK39zFc39e5SimuvA6ExQNpWZQhHFKKUMRa1lF7Q


    Just read this. A year suspended sentence for going to someone’s apartment and stabbing them. It’s an absolute farce. Would it be the same sentence if the genders had been reversed??



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,346 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    “A struggle ensued, during which Lynham stabbed Mr Black in the torso, creating a small wound and said: “I’ve stabbed you now, good enough.” The victim said he thought Lynham looked “crazy and out of it,” the court heard.”

    ”Paramedics were called for the victim, but he refused medical help. He treated himself with painkillers and saw his GP later. He has since made a full recovery”

    Yes it must have been a horrific injury she caused there, lock her up for good..



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    All the evidence points to scumbags being kept in prison not being able to commit any more crimes against joe public



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