Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

I don't think those of us who've been following Putin's politics for the last decade or so are the slightest bit surprised.

Lavrov is claiming Russia-China relations are stronger than ever which as we all know actually means that there's probably serious problems in the relationship

https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-china-relations-strongest-level-ever-says-lavrov-2022-03-28/

It sends a message to his enemies.

Sorry to go off on a tangent here, but I heard a radio advert for Unicef or Concern today, and they said they have been in Ukraine for 25yrs?

Is it a poor country that has needed such NGOs in it for a quarter of a century?

...

Major historical revisionism. Typical of Russian (or Communist) propaganda.

USSR stopped the Nazis hence they're eternal goodness, forever and ever and can never be subjected to any scrutiny.

You forgot to say that "liberating" half of Europe from Nazi Germany was actually occupation, unlike the Allied forces, Soviet forces (Stalin really) did it for a reason - to occupy Central and Eastern Europe.

Now, you forgot to mention the Ukrainian losses during 1941 and 1944. They were used as cannon fodder, first when the Nazis stormed through Ukraine towards Russia and then again when Soviet Red Army (aka Russian + Ukrainian) pushed back at the expense of massive losses, just storming the enemy like locusts... And of course desserters were also shot from the back by the Bolsheviks.

And finally, of course, like every revisionist propagandist you forgot to mention Lend and Lease by USA thanks to which USSR was able to manufacture and especially transport critical number of weapon systems to overpower Nazis on the Eastern front (this was totally key because of the Russian primitive military tactics which wasted both human material as well as weapon systems).

Revisionism was a way of life during Soviet Times

• In Soviet dominated Poland, it was not permitted to discuss the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact - or the fact the USSR invaded eastern Poland in 1939
• The Berlin Wall was referred to as the Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart, deliberately implying that West Germany remained fascist
• Obviously the near hundreds of 'Non Persons', sometimes higher up Soviet officials, who would fall out of favor - only to be 'disappeared' and have their history erased

The exclusion of Western assistance in defeating NAZI GERMANY is endemic though - and widely believed. I have actually chatted to Russians who have fully endorsed the idea, and speak of D-Day, the African Theater, the invasion of Italy - were all nonsense - the west just wanting to be 'seen to oppose NAZI Germany' -and thats to say nothing of the equipment given to the Soviets. Even the role of Bomber command, and the widespread destruction of German Manufacturing is considered nothing worth mentioning -

Not surprised.

Re Poland, in fact, USSR attacked Poland at almost the same time as Nazi Germany, met in the middle one month later, partioned it and signed a mutual alliance. So no wonder it was banned to speak about it in Poland. USSR essentially both started the WW2 as well as sided with the Nazis for 2 years.

Wow, didn't know about the name of the Berlin wall....serious stuff.

No way USSR could have "won" the war without any western assistance. Russians live in a sort of mythical alternate reality. And you know what other nation lives in a similar nexus of illusions, delusions and lies - the Chinese.

Surely you mean the people of the USSR defeated nazi Germany with, setting aside western assistance for now, people from multiple non-Russian countries being used as connon fodder and being killed in enormous numbers?

It's irrelevant to this thread, your attempts to glorify Russia's past is no justification for Russia's actions today. If anything, their past should logically make them less willing to invade another country given the scale of the suffering and death which resulted from the Nazi invasion of them. Harking back to WWII changes nothing for today.

I'm happy to let the USSR (with significant Western assistance) have that victory, it was not just Russia. They were far from magnificent though, the victory was in no small part due to sheer weight of numbers and a willingness to accept any level of fatalities (including killing their own soldiers if they thought it necessary). The weather also played a not insignificant part in that victory. In any case, WWII does nothingto lessen the abhorrent behaviour of the current Russian state.

Nobody is hating on or attacking the ordinary Russian person, suggesting people are is just another distraction and attempt to excuse the inexcusable.

Those who attack Biden for suggesting it is desirable for Putin to be gone and those who suggest Putin needs an off-ramp are equivalent to Hitler appeasers after the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1938. It is a fundamental misunderstanding of how dictators take chances to reinforce their domestic power.

Lets compare: In 1938 many in power in Germany thought Hitler a madman for invading Czechoslovakia likely bringing destruction upon the German nation. An assassination attempt even occurred. What happenned? The allies appeased him and Hitler appeared in Germany to be a genius who had taken a country and extracted concessions from the allies. He was now unassailable. Those who opposed him either started to believe in him or were forced to remain silent. The disaster that followed became pretty inevitable.

Russia's economy was in the gutter. Putin had to do something. He (and many Russian elites) believed the hype about their army which hadn't been tested against a conventional army since 1945. Otherwise Putin's position was identical to Hitler's. Roll the dice, quickly overtake a neighbouring country. Extract concessions and declare victory against the west. If Putin wins (and any International recognition of Russian occupation of Donbass/Crimea is a win) then no one will stand against the next roll of the dice which will come and will be Poland. Presumably, Putin will have fixed his army then.

Conclusion: if you want a world war then the west should attack Biden for suggesting Putin needs to go and give Putin an off-ramp in his butcher's war which will make his power in Russia unshakable and ensure the next 'big' war.

'Those who attack Biden for suggesting it is desirable for Putin to be gone and those who suggest Putin needs an off-ramp are equivalent to Hitler appeasers after the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1938. '

An analogy with the Cuban Missile Crisis could just as easily be drawn.

How are you going to guarantee he won't push the big red button if he's being forced from power?

Poland was an authoritarian regime under Marshal Pidsulski in the late 1920s, following the failure of political parties to deliver effective government (a bit like Portugal following Marshal Carmona's takeover in the late 1920s). When Pidsulski died in 1935 there was no military successor regime. Whatever the Polish regime was, it wasn't a military dictatorship. The idea that the Polish military thought they could beat Germany is quite ridiculous. (They did have from in giving the Russians a run for their money). Why did Poland get guarantees of support from the UK and France?