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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,499 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Aren't those F16s from the Dutch/Danes/Norwegians some of the highest flight hours in service though, how many hours do they have left before major work? That being said, when you see the most modern variants of the 16, the design team deserves a hell of a lot of credit for the design.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,942 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Of course it isn't.

    For about 47 appreciable reasons.

    And your 'planes in the air now' strategy, who or what do you intend to fly them, fuel them, maintain them, arm them, control and direct them, and shelter them.

    Did it occur to you that they are cheap for a reason, the air combat equivalent of a 1992 Ford Fiesta with 300k miles on the clock?

    It's the 'some African country' who would rather strafe rebels out in the bush than feed their children, that Israel have in mind for these right now, not a western nation located in the middle of NATO.

    In fact, can you imagine the NATO response? 'You're not flying those **** boxes in proximity to our very expensive fighters, tankers and AWACs Paddy, thanks all the same!'



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    As a non-flier it seems to me we need an aircraft that has a reputation both as an interceptor AND good at Close Air Support with a range of Target illumination capabilities. A bit like Warthog and F-16 rolled into one. The Brits are fond of skimming the valleys in Wales and strikes by aircraft other than USA in Afghanistan were done by other Nations at 46% so I presume others were British and non US equipped Europeans.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Why not operate two types? An intercepter and a ground attack plane? Could save a few bob that way as the ground attack item doesn't have to be state of the art....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    Depends on sophisticated. The A10 is /was equipped with GPS and Laser guided bombs. They had their ECM Pod under one wing and a couple of Sidewinders under the other wing for self Defence purposes. They had compensating controls to allow for bits blown off all controlled by software.

    Leaving age aside, in polls of the best, the F16 comes out top.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,499 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Because a) we don’t need a ground attack plane and b) any of the modern aircraft can handle any ground attack roles, nobody builds a dedicated interceptor anymore. Hell the USAF have been trying to kill off the A10 for decades as while it has good PR it can only really operate in permissive environments.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    Most soldiers would like a ground attack plane for CAS. It can stick around and deploy it's large payload and gut strong points with it's 30mm Gatling gun. The interceptor of supersonic class is in and gone after 10/15 minutes requiring fuel. Whether we want it or not troops on the ground need close support, as much as possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,499 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Assuming the other guy doesn’t shot back of course, the SU 25s haven’t had an easy time over Ukraine for example. More to the point again the A 10 has limitations, that loiter time is offset by a much longer transit time due to its lower top speed and relatively short range, nor is its payload a huge margin over 4.5 gen fighters.

    The USAF has been banging its head against the US Congress since the first Gulf War on the issue, and frankly it’s a complete non issue for Ireland. Hell it’s a non issue for any Western State outside of the US as none of them have such a dedicated plane.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,942 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The combat zone ground attack plane is in the midst of being replaced by drones. Whether thats the A-10 or the C-130 gunship or the subsonic light jet, they are all on the way out. I can imagine that attack helicopters will be soon enough too.

    Smaller, cheaper, harder for the enemy to see and destroy. They can be controlled directly from the ground by the same units that are doing the fighting, total force integration.

    There are a few recent videos on YouTube of Bayraktar drones supplied by Turkey, being flown by the Ukrainians in the field, absolutely laying waste to Russian armoured columns, not a vehicle missed. Devastatingly effective.

    It's such technology that's needs to be added to the Army's capability in the coming force modernisation exercise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,499 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Well let’s also factor in the appalling performance of the Russians with even their SAM systems either being knocked out while turned off, or breaking down. But yes the performance of drones is massively increasing and should be looked at, along with a massive change in our active defences for the army against drone threats.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    If drones are figuring in the battlefield in Ukraine and have that level of capability then certainly we should embed them with manouvering units.

    In any event we need a drone flying school to train operatives as drone pilots and formalise their use on land and at sea.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,942 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Great purpose for the Air Corps in the reforms. All pilot training and airmanship skills, manned and unmanned, for all services, should be with the Air Corps.

    The Flying Training School and Ground School should be renewed, as a centre of excellence similar to the National Maritime College.

    It could be linked up with the IAA and their civilian programmes for appropriate crossover areas.

    Come to think of it, Shannon would be a great location for such a College. The IAA centre is already there and in the event that an Air Corps station does happen in Shannon for Atlantic airspace defence, the concentration of work and investment there would be very valuable, in every respect.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Neutral Austria is planning an increase in their defence expenditure from approx. 0.6 to 1% of GDP in response to Russia's aggression.

    Amongst other defence investments, they will upgrade their much maligned Tranche 1 Eurofighter to an operational condition.

    Given the surplus of T1 aircraft, this upgrade may be closely monitored by the suits in Newbridge.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,499 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Depends, are their T1s similar to any of the other T1s that are due for replacement?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,942 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The Eurofighter, like the F-35, is a bucket of shyt.

    A temperamental, fragile and expensive system, over-specified and under-engineered.

    Like a febrile Arabian stallion, when what you need is a dray.

    All this last 30 years of developing 5th Gen fighter jets and finally it dawns on the operators, that holding in a scalpel in your hand is fine and well, but nothing beats overwhelming numbers.

    If the suits in Newbridge decided we were going to adopt the Eurofighter tomorrow, I'd go down there and punch each of them in the mouth then give them the number for the USAF reserve fleet management branch in the Pentagon and start negotiations for 20 refurbished F-16 C/D Block 52, with sidewinders, AMRAAMs and cannons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    They were upgraded to the then "latest" T1 standard in 2013.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,499 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Yeah, but are the RAF T1s upgraded to the same spec? Are the Spanish or German ones? I'm willing to bet that each nations fleet has at least bespoke fit outs and modified baseline standards, you can see that through all the different Tranches, hence why I'm saying it would depend on which fleets are closest to the Austrian ones, and are they at the same level.

    It's no different than the NH90 ending up with such localised variants even within Europe itself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,392 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Here is a complete outside the box question. The Mig 29s that poland wanted to give to ukraine that are upgraded to a nato level, say we where offered them would it be possabile to operate them. What do poland do for spare parts?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Yawlboy


    Those Mig-29s are from the 1980's and even with upgrades are at the end of their operational lives.

    I think the only planes we need are interceptors not ground attack aircraft. The F-18 or F-16 are perfect aircraft for us, loads around, well proven airframes and avionics. The US would support us on them in terms of maintenance and training.

    However if we are being very serious about defence then we should look at the F-35, Switzerland selected them along with most countries replacing their F-16's and F-18s. The Swiss worked out the total cost of ownership and the F-35 won hands down.

    Whatever choice we make will work out expensive in the long run so we should bite the bullet and buy a modern fighter



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    The plane which wins hands down in terms of operating cost is the Gripen, with the F16 in second place. That F35 appears to be an expensive crock of shite and the only reason so many are selling are because of its VTOL capability which makes it the go-to plane for UK Italy Spain Japan and others who are building mini aircraft carriers.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭Stovepipe



    The current RAF training system is not fit for purpose, to deliver it's own pilot/aircrew needs, not to mind anyone else's. The civilian contract system has failed to deliver anything near the requirements for bums on seats and is the subject of much harsh criticism in the UK. So, that route is closed to our lot. Apart from that, what does going 90 miles away to train achieve? We have the same terrain and weather conditions here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    When an Air Corps cadet starts off, he or she is essentially immersed at CPL level. PPL level training is just a minor step to be achieved, to merely prove that the cadet is capable of flying and not bending the aircraft, being receptive to instruction and rapid learning (and the threat of "the chop"). The CPL and Multi-engine/Instrument rating level is Big School, as you have to fly to higher standards, make less mistakes, recognise those errors and fix them and cope with the strange environment of IR flight. Usually, by this time, a few cadets have been chopped so the focus is intense. Instrument training also chops a few more and aerobatics/unusual attitude recovery gets a few, so by the time they get their wings, they've been through the mill. That's the first part over. Conversion to something like a Hawk is another leap. Many Air Arms use civvy schools but they tend to get them to operate to a near replica of Military training with all the rote routines and command structure and so on, that a real civvy would laugh at. The US military is a case in point. It's effectively a filtering system created by accountants so that the US doesn't "waste" money on fleets of basic trainers, but it has worked for decades and serves a huge military. Airlines who use schools like Jerez also push their students hard but they also give their candidates more chances to correct mistakes and they don't need aerobatic pilots or potential bomb droppers and they have a higher success rate. The Military have also recognised that the "chop" mentality was cutting good cadets who could have used a little bit more help and would have passed the course or could have been streamed to non-fighter aircraft or rotary. Both Military and Civvy training have their good and bad points but it would be a stupid Military that disregarded the good points of Civilian school training.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    The Army attitude to driving is that a candidate can go from zero to driver of an Army 3 ton truck in 16 weeks. Same with flying; lack of experience is no bar to applying for pilot training. That doesnt necessarily mean that Army drivers are better than civvy drivers and vice versa. Also, these days, with so many people who have driving skills before they get near a 3 tonner, the course is more about undoing bad habits that qualifying a zero experience candidate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    why should Lt Cols not fly? they get Flying pay, you stick them on the roster. Same as any airline. You train them, you use them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    It is utterly impossible to have any kind of aircraft without non-EU (US) technology in it. Between avionics, engines, flight control systems, weapons, guidance systems and all the rest, American tech is involved, which is why they can shut the tap off any time they want to. EU defence companies are as cynical and greedy as any American firm and it really doesn't matter where the stuff comes from. As for Israel, they make some of the best, battle proven kit in the world and are reliable suppliers. The Gripen, much loved on these pages, is essentially dominated by American tech and if we bought them, we would have to keep a weather eye on the Americans.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    Let me give you an example; the Air Corps museum has a wheeled radar unit, an old one from the 60s. It turned out that the Army "gifted" the Museum a couple of L60 Bofors guns and a radar. Bearing in mind that the Don had never operated either, people were a bit bemused but it was decided that they should be kept. No-one knew anything about them, as they had NEVER, in all their service history, operated in Baldonnel but would go to Gormanstown for AA shoots. So, the Army had an anti aircraft system, that the Air Corps were unfamiliar with, the AC had never practised air defence with them on their home turf and the only integration with them was to shoot at towed targets once a year. You'd think that an Air Arm would train against an anti aircraft system, from a military point of view, wouldnt you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Based on this article:

    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/03/22/aust-m22.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,392 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Jesus Stovepipe your not holding back today😁

    The only reason i mentioned Lt Cols was because i had mentioned similar before i was told that rank should not be flying as there managment



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,215 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    I think the Typhoon only has issues with its Tranche 1 variant isnt it? Models now used by the RAF seem to be fine.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,499 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Yeah it's mainly the T1's that seem to have had the most issues, but even in the later Tranches you then get into some significant differences between users.



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