Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635006#Comment_120635006

Sorry on my phone with shite service. But you aren’t wrong, I mean SFs whole platform is full of empty promises.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635115#Comment_120635115

Thats very bad news as it means they are trying to be a normal political party

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635189#Comment_120635189

Nah, the bad news is that people actually believe them and think some how anything will massively change when they are in power.

Manic Moran

[MOD]OK, when we start trading barbs over American vs British spellings of words, we've gone a bit too far. I'm locking the thread for 24 hours so that folks can cool down, read this, and have a bit of a think.

Observations:

1) Nobody is obliged to respond to posts they disagree with. As long as Delusiondestroyer is being relatively civil, having a minority viewpoint is not an actionable offense. It seems to me that he is not about to change any honestly-held beliefs, no matter what form of logic we try, so we may as well stop. We can draw our own conclusions on his stated position.

2) This is a military subforum, not a politics one. The political question on the need for an Irish defense capability as a concept has already been made by Ireland's political leadership over the years (even if the execution has not met the policy), debate on that is best held over on Politics or Current Affairs (I believe there are already related threads). Old saws about warfare being a continuation of politics by other means indicate that yes, we do discuss political matters here insofar as they may impinge on defense matters, but they are not to become the dominant topic of discussion. It's time for this thread to take a course correction and return to the concepts of military execution of political policy, as opposed to the determination of that policy.

3) Violation of '2' is going to be an actionable offense.

[/MOD]

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120640765#Comment_120640765

You never know, maybe its finally sunk into the heads of some of the TD's that the world just might be getting a bit more unstable? I mean its a low probability event but maybe?

Larbre34

2% of Forecast GDP for 2023 would equate to €10.5 Billion.

Of course Ireland's GDP is skewed so GNI* is used and even 2% of that would be >€5 Billion per annum.

And of course our structure has nowhere near the capacity to make use of such a budget and so it's very easy for spoofers like Sinn Féin to deny something that absolutely nobody is suggesting be done.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120640971#Comment_120640971

True enough, though I don't think anyone would complain if they played the card of refusing 2% but accepting 1% (for example), that's would still be a huge boost. And in relation to SF, wonder what Matt and the Ambassador might have discussed?

https://twitter.com/vincentguerend/status/1661463104872493057

Larbre34

In other words, no more scutting off the back of the milk float.

delusiondestroyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120642521#Comment_120642521

We are well able to fufil our obligations to the EU, you are just over exaggerating our "Obligations" in the first place and the expectations other nations have of Ireland.

Larbre34

It would have been too much too ask for you to slink off after the lock, I guess.

bear1

1% would be a serious amount for a country like Ireland. I can’t ever see it happening though.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120644697#Comment_120644697

We have done it before with a hell of a lot smaller economy and population, all thats lacking is will and grown up thinking about the growing instability in the World.

Larbre34

The whole fixation on 2%, that began with NATO, is a red herring and a redundant argument from the off.

It's completely arbitrary and bears no regard to the differing needs and geography of different members.

I've been a project director in my profession for 15 years and for 10 before that at junior levels and you do not begin a project with 'whatever we do it's got to cost a minimum of 2% of revenues'.

What should be done, in Ireland as much as anywhere else (and in a general sense the Commission has done it) is to carry out an entire strategic assessment of the Alliance, locally, regionally, globally with allies and determine the gross sizes of the fighting forces and support services in totality to protect everybody's collective interests and then break it down into strengths, capacity, resources etc etc.

In short, how can Norway and Albania each spending 2% of GDP be comparable contributions?

bear1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120644850#Comment_120644850

We did? There was a time the country invested heavily in defence?

delusiondestroyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120644646#Comment_120644646

Grow up, the threads open to everyone not just people that you agree with and I wasn't even speaking to you, constantly derailing the thread with your nonsense digs, if you don't like what I've to say don't read it.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120645106#Comment_120645106

Yes and No. We spent over 1% on defence during the Troubles, into the 90s it was still above that from memory, the only problem of course being our entire economy was so small that 1% was basically in the hundreds of millions (and the Army got the lions share as you can imagine given the manpower it had then), compared to now when you are talking circa €3 billion, so kind of backs the point that just a figure of gdp in isolation doesn't tell much.

Thinking about it, given the manpower mobilised in WW2 I'm sure we would likely have been over the 1% as well then, but again you are talking about an economy that barely exists.

bear1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120645368#Comment_120645368

Interesting.

I read somewhere a while ago that just before the war we actually had an order for a squadron of hurricanes or spitfires? Can’t remember which, begs the question though what if we had gotten them?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120646184#Comment_120646184

There was multiple options before the war as basically we sent a delegation over to London to ask, they had suggested around 10 squadrons of aircraft of mixed roles, MPA, Light Bomber and Fighter, and from memory the Hurricane was suggested. But that would have required us using the support of the Air Ministry to purchase them so the Gladiator was picked instead but the war interrupted delivery of them.

jonnybigwallet

I thought the AC had a bomber squadron as well?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120646518#Comment_120646518

They had a few Ansons, but they were at best marginal, at worst obsolete as we bought them, but never enough to be an actual squadron.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120646819#Comment_120646819

I totally agree with you on how quickly things moved in aviation at that time, generations were measured almost in years really. The Gladiator was in hindsight a mistake Gloster had put forward a monoplane design as well which would have been far better for the RAF and RN but to be fair it’s not the only missed opportunity for the U.K.

The Anson served on as you said but for us it was always a strange one imo, not really capable as a bomber or endurance for MPA and like everything not enough of them.

saabsaab

We actually had Gladiators too..

https://irelandsmilitarystory.ie/2018/06/17/1568/

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120646998#Comment_120646998

As I said it was the “step down” we took when it was decided that it wasn’t politically acceptable to work with the Air Ministry to purchase Hurricanes, but deliveries were suspended when the war started and we stayed neutral. Like everything defence related it was far too late by the time Dev and the cabinet actually grasped how bad the situation was in Europe and how likely a war was, simple measures taken a few years beforehand would have left us in a much better position… somethings never change I guess…

bear1

Amazing to think we actually had an airforce all those years ago.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120648066#Comment_120648066

As I’ve said before realistically it was barely better than where we are now and never able to manage even control over Casement against anything.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120648890#Comment_120648890

Hand in hand with our limited aircraft there was also the limitations of command and control though (again something don't change), I mean even if we maintained fighters ready to respond, how much lead time would they have had to take off and climb to combat altitude for any interception? With little to no ground guidance even finding any hostile?

And of course that again is not touching how outclassed the AC would have been, I mean given the small number of fighters and supply issues how much Air to Air training did they even do during the war?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120648097#Comment_120648097

We had diplomats in the major capitals though, it should have been easy for them to see the rising chances of conflict given the significant upswing in defence spending alone, even if you discount the Appeasement Policies and the fact that our representative in Berlin was a big fan of Hitler. In reality given our connections with the UK it should have been easy to see that "something bad" was increasingly going to happen, and how utterly bare ass naked we were, at the very least after the Treaty Ports were returned a Navy should have been started then (as the Free State put forward in the late 1920's Naval Talks with the UK), I mean I've often wondered with the UK industry ramping up so much so fast from 1936 onwards, why some Irish firms didn't try and get some of the business?

As for the States, their position was more complex, as was their position on Dev's choice to stay neutral, not sure you can claim they were still backing neutrality until Japan's attack either given their actions in the North Atlantic by then either.

delusiondestroyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120648890#Comment_120648890

And as a result what happened? Absolutely nothing.

roadmaster

We are so lucky that the below could never happen in Irish Air Space

https://www.thejournal.ie/four-dead-small-plane-crash-us-6085711-Jun2023/

jonnybigwallet

A terrible tragedy....makes you wonder if the USAF were guilty of inappropriate gung ho tactics

Larbre34

Have they really? Lols.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679567#Comment_120679567

You're a moron.

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679567#Comment_120679567

You are a clown.

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679567#Comment_120679567

Nothing has been reported other than that the Citation continued at FL340 (34,000 feet) until it was seen by the escorting fighters to enter a downwards spiral and crash. A very similar event occurred in Europe last October and no one felt the need to speculate about military interference with the flight. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Baltic_Sea_Cessna_Citation_crash

See also this intelligent summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY15feS9Va4

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680658#Comment_120680658

Read a report that sudden cabin depressurization is suspected.

Manic Moran

[MOD]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680331#Comment_120680331

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680466#Comment_120680466

That said, the post to which you were responding was equally questionable and if directed at a poster would be pretty much on a violation standard as well.

[/MOD]

kenny80

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/06/10/high-court-date-set-for-challenge-to-alleged-secret-arrangement-on-raf-in-irish-airspace/

Larbre34

I fully expect the pre-trial motion to succeed and for this matter to never see the inside of an open Court.

Craughwell's intentions may be noble enough here, but he's overreaching. And he knows it.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698770#Comment_120698770

I think you are right, but at least it keeps the focus on the issue and might mean someone has some grown up comments/discussions on the matter at the 4 thinkins of Martin over the summer.

Larbre34

Makes no difference really, the budget increases out to 2028 have been well telegraphed and we can't recruit enough servicemen right now to even consume the existing budget.

I suppose the Government will simply point to the Commission report and the radar acquisition programme and say 'no comment, but we are making improvements'

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120700110#Comment_120700110

They started looking at the Primary Radar in 2015 they must know every sales Broucher inside out by now

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120702010#Comment_120702010

While it was mentioned in 2015 and some of the companies did try and capitalise on that, the department only started a procurement team since the Commission, and with how things are changing, is the capabilities/pricing of whatever was suggested in 2015 relevant nearly 10 years on? Let alone when/if they actually put a Tender out given the pace Procurement goes in DOD.

Larbre34

Nah, whole different paradigm now.

Supply chain, capacity, inflationary cycle, high demand for the specific technology etc.

They might as well have read the Smyths Toys Christmas brochure in 2015, for all the good it would do them now.

Larbre34

Are you talking about a fixed land-based platform of sea surface surveillance?

Is that even practical beyond a very short range of land?

delusiondestroyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120699358#Comment_120699358

The only ones that need to grow up are the ones crying about an agreement that is clearly beneficial to both parties, infact one could argue it's more so towards Ireland's favor.

The ones crying are only doing so cause theyre upset they can't do it.

It's a nonsense case that In all likelyhood is gonna be tossed aside like nothing and the agreement will continue which will further allow the government to put the air corps and radar on the back burner...

Because why go to all that trouble when they can get the job done better for cheaper.

Harsh reality of the situation.

Think about it...

RAF..

Already set up fully functional top tire equipment.

More than capable of doing the job.

More than likely have been doing it for the last few decades.

Combat Proven.

Or

Air Corp..

Massive financial outlay,

No equipment

No infrastructure

No training program

Constant upkeep costs

Decade or more till operational

Likelyhood of being needed extremely low

No combat experience.

It's a no brainier for the gov.

Larbre34

Firstly, your assessment of the reality of anything, is best disregarded.

But one thing Craughwell and others have done, is to raise awareness of the unsatisfactory nature of the situation, not to mention the hypocrisy.

That genie isn't going back in the bottle and by setting up and then accepting the recommendations of the CoDF, the Government have conceded the point.

Cost has really nothing to do with it. This is about a sovereign Republic contracting out big chunks of its defence obligations to the very nation with whom we were essentially in conflict, for centuries. A territorial conflict which remains unresolved to this day. And that matters to many people in Ireland.

Who knows, it may well matter to the Brits too. They have become very insular in this last decade and they could withdraw from the agreement at any moment. What then?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120703108#Comment_120703108

Even if they didn't the more coming out about the state of the RAF/RN and the long term "plans" of the UK Government makes you wonder how long they are going to be willing at the very least not to be presenting us with a bill every year for the services they are providing for us. Their ambitions well exceed their capabilities and giving us a blanket cover simply because of how F'd UP our national view on defence is an area they could well look at.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120702650#Comment_120702650

I could see the systems being feeding back to the same command facility but would positions for Primary Radar work for Maritime Radar as well? If they were to use the preexisting sites for the IAA would they work as well? Would the systems cause interference with each other I wonder and what kind of systems are we looking at given the suggested Kite for Project costs? Makes you wonder which nation they have already sent a team to, might give us an idea about what general capabilities they are looking at.

delusiondestroyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120703108#Comment_120703108

Firstly you are of highly questionable character (That's being very polite) which is evident from your recent post's mocking people with disabilities and I am honestly surprised that you are even tolerated here regardless of the discussion at hand.

They conceded nothing, and if you think that's some sort of win you'll be old and grey waiting for your radar and fighter jets...post all the articles you want and all the promises from the gov you want you wont see jets in this country for a very..very long time and with successive gov all these promises will be subject to change.

What then? nothing the same thing that's been happening for decades, the doomsday scenarios you have in your head are exactly that all in your head!

And they aren't insular either that's another over exaggeration and not based in fact at all only you trying bend reality to your own argument.

They have made agreements with the US they are one of the top backers of the Ukraine all very insular activities.

But incase you haven't noticed its in there interest to keep the Skys over Ireland safe as it is too close for comfort even for themselves self preservation alone will keep that agreement standing.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120703633#Comment_120703633

If the P60s were upgraded with an Air Search radar and tied in with the land radar stations could that provide a full picture?. Do the new 295s have any air search radar or are the only fitted with Marine