Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118552444#Comment_118552444

I read a while back that the Pc9s were only supposed to fly till 2023 ,in saying that I'm right beside baldonnel and they seem to be flying less than previous years , unless I'm mistaken ,

I've been holding out hope who's ever in charge of procurement takes a visit to a certain Swedish company.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118552503#Comment_118552503

Nah, there was a notational mention about them starting a replacement program by 2025 by memory but given the time the AC aircraft stay in service it's not likely before 2030 at best (barring significant changes of course). There's been issues with manpower shortages affect training flights for the last couple of years I think.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118552503#Comment_118552503

Also if at any stage there were fighters ordered (or really any singificant increase in aircraft) I could see them having to be based outside of Dublin.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118552578#Comment_118552578

Considering the complaints about the noise from helicopters coming and going from residents of rathcoole and saggart , i could only imagine what would happen if we had fast jets coming and going daily,

The N7 is actually noiser than baldonnel

Where would you think they would be based if we did get jets ,I'd reckon we would see plenty of legal rangling whenever and wherever they were based

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118552615#Comment_118552615

Sticking them and the CASA's out at Shannon would make the most sense, both from existing capacity and where they are both most likely to be operating closer to. Other than our usual half arsed nature, it's never made sense to me to keep our maritime patrol aircraft in Dublin when they have to cross the entire nation for the majority of their taskings for example

source

Indo article

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/defence-forces-admit-they-cannot-meaningfully-defend-ireland-41292277.html

Air Corps to be Air Force

Naval Service to be Navy

Army Ranger Wing to be Ireland's Special Operations Force.

3 options being given to govt, article doesn't expantld on option 1 from what I can see but option 2 is to increase the budget to 1.5bn improve mechanised capability and increase the navy.

Option 3 increases navy to 12 vessels, and allows for 8 fighter aircraft, budget of €3bn.

Recommendation seems to be option 2 in the medium term with a view to increasing to option 3 in the longer term.

I can see the increase to 1.5bn being done but never moving on to 3bn.

jonnybigwallet

Very interesting article in the indo...extract above. Worth reading the entire article. Fully support this: 12 ship navy including war fighting capability. Jets for air interception and other roles. Primary radar, upgrades to land forces equipment and reorganizing command structure.

lt amounts to a root and branch overhaul and massive increase both in spend and capability. Long overdue and needed.

Sgt. Bilko 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118552346#Comment_118552346

The PC9s are due to be replaced in 2025 what they’re going to be replaced with is another thing altogether. Judging by the previous decisions and procurement we have seen how ridiculous they’re purchases really are.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554023#Comment_118554023

If they were being replaced in 2025 the procurement process would already have started by now, there's no way it would be done in 3 years so they will be flying after that.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554551#Comment_118554551

That's what I was saying ,I read they were to fly till 2023 , but maybe its the procurement or discussions on whats going to replace the pc9s will begin in 2023?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554826#Comment_118554826

Given the ability of the department to handle multiple procurement at the same time again it's doubtful, they have plenty of time left in their lifespans, if the Commission is talking about adding more helicopters I'd say that will come first.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554912#Comment_118554912

Are helicopters abke to be purchased off the shelf or is there a long lead in time like the casas

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554963#Comment_118554963

Should be able to be bought off the shelf couldn't see them taking several years from purchase to delivery ,

Open to correction though

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554963#Comment_118554963

Suppose that depends on what we are buying, more half arsed like the 139s or something fully capable, add in whether they would be configured for Maritime use as well or not.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118552346#Comment_118552346

The question is not what will we replace them with, but should we replace them at all.

Tandem seat trainers make no sense when every other Aircraft in the fleet is twin (side by side) seating.

Better off sell them back to Pilatus in exchange for more PC12, and use something twin seated like a Grob for flying training.

If we decide then to go down the Fast Jet route, it would be safer to do advanced training elsewhere. We should not buy advanced jet trainers with a supposed armed function. It's a false economy. I can't say this strongly enough.

Sweden train their future Gripen Pilots on a tandem seater jet trainer, the SAAB 105. They will soon retire the type and will be replacing them with .... Grob 120TP. Advanced training will be done on the Gripen D.

Gatling

The Gripen to me makes the most sense to me at least ,

It's pretty low Cost €30 million+ per aircraft ,fast , light and agile suitable for foreign aircraft intercepts and capable of air 2 air ,

Trainers with no real intercept ability or air2air ,

I do like the pc12 but surely it would make more sense have multiple pc12 base in Dublin, cork and possibly somewhere more North so they can cover more sky , rather than having one and expecting it to do the all the roles it suppost to cover ,

sparky42

Even if Option 3 is the one ultimately selected and multiple governments sustain commitment to it, by the time we would be talking about being in a position to buy the aircraft we're likely talking about 2030 or so at best given how much needs to be done before that. At that point who knows what we might be looking at. The Gripen is coming under pressure for new orders from the F16 at the low end and the 35 at the high end.

donvito99

Is this arising out of the Commission, or in response to the Russian exercise?

Welcome nonetheless. Let's hope we don't just go through the motions and emulate other comparable countries and instead develop a useful force with the ability to deter aggression in our part of the world.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118555768#Comment_118555768

It's from the Commission, not sure why you think we shouldn't look at other nations of comparable nations though?

donvito99

Instead of comparable, I should have said contemporary, or something to that effect. My opinion is that we're wasting our time with Gripens and 'Air Policing'.

If we're suddenly getting serious about our own defence, and that of Europe's, I would rather we developed a competent (local) ASW/ASuW force between the Navy and the Air Corps. We are an island after all, not a former Soviet Central European state or a big power with interests further afield. Our priority is not to get cut off, ensuring a continuity of supply, and if we're doing our job right, contributing to a deterrence to war (something that's not working well at the minute, no thanks to us).

Europe, the EU and NATO would be glad if there were more assets to exclude subs. I understand that there's more sub activity from the Russian Northern fleet now than there was at the height of the Cold War? Australia's planning for SSNs demonstrates that they are a game changing weapon, and we're right on the front line in that respect.

8 Gripens? I don't think that would rank at all with our European partners, as Brian Cowen would say. A couple of Poseidens (a la New Zealand and Norway) or twice as many C295s with a proper fit out, a half dozen AS565s in lieu of the AW139 and a couple of fast ships (with the ability to accommodate the helps) pulling towed array sonars would be a big contribution - one that could be made by a slightly larger defence force. Admittedly it would take the NS and AC a decade or more to learn a basic art of ASW, but that also applies to fast jets.

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118552503#Comment_118552503

Of interest, I see AC112 airframe rotation is happening faster now too, maybe 2 days as opposed to 4, the 139's must really be getting a right run!

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118557177#Comment_118557177

Interesting, that and the firefighting might be running the airframes quicker than planned alright... Lets just cross fingers that they are replaced with actual mil-spec helicopters next time.

green man

West brit

Gary kk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118555490#Comment_118555490

Is that the red tail? Red hawk? That saab and Boeing are building as a trainer

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118557513#Comment_118557513

The TX or T7A which is replacing the t38 and other trainers,

jonnybigwallet

Interesting post. Agree about As565 being a very useful bit of kit to replace 139's. Disagree about rejecting fast jets ( though I favour the cheaper KAI F series).

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118557513#Comment_118557513

No.

Its a Gripen with a back seat.

The US has a whole load of other reasons for replacing the T38 with the T7, none of which we have. Put it out of your head. It has no armament. AT ALL.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118557254#Comment_118557254

Who are you talking to/about?

Anyone else noticed a sudden influx of strangers to this dusty corner of Boardsie?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118558799#Comment_118558799

Same as social media having an outbreak of "experts", most declaring that nothing should be done, or somehow pretending that the last 10 years was an exception rather than the norm for defence spending.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118559207#Comment_118559207

Strangely many parroting a recent statement by the Russian Foreign minister.

Wonder why that would be?