30k speed limits for all urban areas on the way

Unrealistic · 13-03-2022 3:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778486#Comment_118778486

Was there a bike line on the inside of you? If there was, I'd question whether your attribution of blame is accurate. If not, yes, it's more debatable.

I had that recently cycling to work. Lights were green and left hand traffic lane was moving more slowly than I was cycling on the cycle lane on the inside of it. There was a cement truck in that lane so I slowed down and matched the pace of the car behind it rather than going up the inside of the truck which might decide to turn left, even though it wasn't indicating. As we got up to the lights the traffic started moving a bit faster and the cement truck accelerated. The thick driver beside me decided that was her opportunity to speed up and cut left right across me. I roared something NSFW, that she heard from inside the car and she came to a stop just before I collided with her left front wing. By the look on her face I'm quite sure she that twenty minutes later she was telling her friends in college about the crazy cyclist who almost crashed into her, still oblivious to the fact that she was completely in the wrong.

I had a similar experience on another left turn where I was going straight ahead and there was a bus lane to the right of me and two traffic lanes to the right of that. A driver in the centre lane wanted to turn left but there was a bus in the bus lane matching his speed. So he came almost to a complete stop until the bus went past and then pulled into the bus lane and tried to cut across me travelling straight ahead. I ended up swerving to the left out of the bike lane as we were going through the junction to avoid him and he came to stop in the bike lane to avoid hitting me. I was now stopped in front of him and asking him what did he think he was doing. His response was "I know you saw me". In his mind he had to stop for the bus that was going straight forward, and he wouldn't dream of cutting in front of it because he'd get crushed, but even though he knew I was in the bike lane and going straight forward he felt it was fine to cut in front of me because, if there was a collision, he wouldn't be getting hurt. Pure 'might makes right' stuff.

13-03-2022 3:36pm

Reducing the speed limit is not suddenly going to get people cycling nor walking.

A big whiff of "Look, cyclists, we're trying."

Ireland is, and will remain, decades behind the rest of Europe.

magicbastarder · 13-03-2022 3:48pm

i'll see if i can find it, but IIRC a TfL study from about 10 years ago found that something like 60% of KSIs involving cyclists were solely the fault of the motorist, and the remaining 40% spread about even between mutual fault, and the sole fault of the cyclist.

found this table ( https://content.tfl.gov.uk/pedal-cyclist-collisions-and-casualities-in-greater-london-sep-2011.pdf )

it's not KSIs, but injuries in general by the look of it. the figures seem fairly conclusive.

magicbastarder · 13-03-2022 3:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778879#Comment_118778879

true, plenty of cities in europe have embraced 30km/h limits.

reniwren · 13-03-2022 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778486#Comment_118778486

Screenshot_2022-03-13-14-49-35-859_com.xodo.pdf.reader.jpg

Screenshot_2022-03-13-14-49-42-187_com.xodo.pdf.reader.jpg

You might me in the wrong there on that occasion.

_Kaiser_ · 13-03-2022 5:25pm

Nope.. No cycle lane and the cyclist was behind me on the inside, not ahead of me or in a stopping area.

I had right of way and she either chanced her arm or had a dangerous sense of entitlement.

Its lucky I spotted the silly twit and more so that I wasn't driving something larger with a bigger blind spot like a bus or truck

patrickbrophy18 · 13-03-2022 5:32pm

I would argue that designing roads with bike lanes on the inside is inherently dangerous given that it opens up the very real possibility of left hooks from motorists. Seriously, motorists are often advised not to pass fellow motorists on the inside. So, why design a road to encourage more vulnerable users to pass on the inside?

Now, I think cycle lanes passing on the inside should have sensors built into them on the run up to junctions which would trigger a red light for motorists turning left. In theory, this would remove the element of uncertainty for drivers turning left.

I think variable speed limits would be a better approach in urban and suburban settings where they would become more laxed when there are fewer pedestrians to look out for. Unlike motorways, these speed limits wouldn't go above 60KMH as a rule of thumb.

AndrewJRenko · 13-03-2022 6:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118779531#Comment_118779531

Your trust in motorists stopping when they see a red light is unfounded.

We don't need more tech solutions. We need drivers to look around before they turn.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118779500#Comment_118779500

Again, why would you think that you had right of way? And indicator does not give right of way.

If the cyclist is filtering past a line of traffic, as they are legally entitled to do, they are continuing on their journey straight ahead. If you're turning across that lane, you need make sure it is clear before you cross it.

_Kaiser_ · 13-03-2022 7:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118779810#Comment_118779810

Top of the queue, no cycle lane, cyclist behind me when I started moving, not alongside or in front of me.

If she wanted to "skip ahead" she should have overtaken on the right, not risk getting clipped on the inside. This is even more so if she was behind a bus or truck.

As I said earlier, all road users need to be aware of the situation around them and take responsibility for their own safety as well.

Anyway, moving on..

magicbastarder · 13-03-2022 8:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118779531#Comment_118779531

what's the alternative though? remove the cycle lanes? or ask cyclists to pass on the outside?

Seth Brundle · 13-03-2022 8:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118779531#Comment_118779531

I would argue that designing roads with bike lanes on the inside is inherently dangerous given that it opens up the very real possibility of left hooks from motorists. Seriously, motorists are often advised not to pass fellow motorists on the inside. So, why design a road to encourage more vulnerable users to pass on the inside?

It is because traditionally cycling infrastructure is designed by drivers for drivers as it is simply designed to remove the risk of cyclists from delaying drivers on the road . It is not designed by someone who will ever use it or understands the risks of bad design.

Citrus_8 · 13-03-2022 10:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118779531#Comment_118779531

When car makes a turn, it's already done at a very low speed so in this case a strict rule who has a priority and a serious enforcement would help to create people's habits.

zell12 · 15-03-2022 1:27pm

SBPost - Government considers 30km/h speed limit for all villages, towns and cities

Flinty997 · 15-03-2022 1:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780265#Comment_118780265

For me, the safest way as a cyclist, is to move out of the cycle lane (if there is one) and go center lane. Become a car, until past the junction then move back left. This also works well on roundabouts. I think you need to be experienced and very aware (as a cyclist) what you are doing to pass on the outside as there's a lot more variables in play.

As a driver, I'm happy to wait for cyclists to come past me on the inside. Because I'd prefer to be delayed and hit someone, than insist on right of way and hit someone even if its their fault.

Indeed I've had that happen a cyclist going full pelt up the inside with wands marking their lane, not paying attention, and not seeing my indicator and I had no visibility of them until it was too late. Before the wands I would have moved tight to the kerb to block undertaking cyclists before making a turn. I try to avoid junctions now with this layout of wands and heavy cycling traffic.

Flinty997 · 15-03-2022 1:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780362#Comment_118780362

Very true.

Flinty997 · 15-03-2022 1:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118779531#Comment_118779531

Be easier to remove the cycle lane 25ms from junction to allow the cars to take left turning position. It would also create space on the right of the car for the passing cyclist to move into.

magicbastarder · 15-03-2022 2:04pm

For me, the safest way as a cyclist, is to move out of the cycle lane (if there is one) and go center lane. Become a car, until past the junction then move back left.

this is also my approach. however, it's not something it's easy to advise a nervous novice to do, and the wands at junctions now make it a bit harder to claim the lane.

e-bikes might make people more confident about taking the lane; the improved acceleration should help with it.

markpb · 15-03-2022 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118788003#Comment_118788003

Do you mean putting the cyclist between two lanes of moving traffic?

Flinty997 · 15-03-2022 2:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118788110#Comment_118788110

If you've ever turned right on a bicycle or needed to go straight where the two lanes and a filter turning left. Cycling between lanes of moving traffic is normal.

15-03-2022 3:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118788157#Comment_118788157

Its also more than a little terrifying for many which is why you only see the bravest doing it

Thinkingaboutit · 15-03-2022 3:49pm

People adhering to this needless limit just results in needless and dangerous overtakes of the law abiding in sensitive places. There should not be overtaking in residential areas, but there BMW and VW Golf / Bora / old Passat drivers on the road, and so it will happen.

Stephen_Maturin · 15-03-2022 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778946#Comment_118778946

I might be reading the table incorrectly but it looks like this says exceeding the speed limit is one of the least common factors for vehicles causing injuries to cyclists?

magicbastarder · 15-03-2022 4:32pm

certainly looks as if it's recorded that way. but that doesn't really prove anything in the '30km/h vs 50km/h debate'.

also, they may only record that when it's provable the motorist was exceeding the speed limit anyway.

15-03-2022 4:44pm

Some people already drive 30kph, or don’t move off at the green light. Same folk then tend to drift through the red light. The behaviour is due to using mobile phone. Lowering the soles limit could encourage more people to drift into inattention from the road as the decide to make use of the crawl to peek at their messages etc.

km991148 · 15-03-2022 5:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789124#Comment_118789124

hmmmm so the reason for not lowering the speed limit is because we acknowledge people are driving dangerously...

magicbastarder · 15-03-2022 5:36pm

so if we slow people down, it'll make the roads more dangerous?

Flinty997 · 15-03-2022 6:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789379#Comment_118789379

I think it's more nuanced then that. It will depend on the road and how it's being used.

Flinty997 · 15-03-2022 6:13pm

It's not speed it's inappropriate speed. Quite a different thing.

magicbastarder · 15-03-2022 6:54pm

i was just addressing the comment that suggested that if people drive more slowly, they'll be more likely to be looking at their phones and thus the implication is they drive more dangerously, which is an argument i don't buy.

Flinty997 · 15-03-2022 7:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789710#Comment_118789710

You don't have to buy it. They've done research into it.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/12/181212135021.htm

Not that I'm suggesting the Phoenix Park is the same. But these sweeping generalisations are opinions not fully thought out. It's very easy to look up all this research, but no one seems to bothered to do it. Or be bothered that no one else has done it including the people making the changes.

I suspect this is why they seem to have started collecting traffic data in the park recent. They realize they have no recent data.

That said some people only to learn that fire is hot by touching it. With that mind why not do a trial and see how it works out.

30k speed limits for all urban areas on the way

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