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This whole cancel culture myth

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,058 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Is Jimmy Carr going to be cancelled for what he said about the Genocide of the Roma and Sinti people?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,317 ✭✭✭hawley




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,058 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    No idea what you are on about, sorry!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,580 ✭✭✭✭Riesen_Meal


    Saw the furore about Jimmy Carr, have people never seen him before this?

    People are so precious, it was a bad taste joke, like most of his bad taste jokes...

    People also had no problem slagging him off when his taxes were out of kilter either, he took some ribbing from the general public...

    Cant say anything nowadays without a magnifying glass watching over you as a "public figure"



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,878 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    what jokes had he told before which were similar?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,058 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Well some might say that he should be cancelled under the trade descriptions act in the first place, but outside of that, I think "can't say anything nowadays" is downplaying this one just a tad.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Not at the same level but he did this a few years back. And honestly in both that case and this case, I can completely get why people are annoyed. If he had similar about Jews or gay people, it would probably provoke more outrage. He basically chose a group that get subjected to lots of acceptable bigotry about their mass extermination. Horrible prick tbh.





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,580 ✭✭✭✭Riesen_Meal


    His YouTube channel seems to have plenty...


    That's how he earns his money I suppose...


    I'm not a fan of him tbh but I don't think comedians should be cancelled for you know, being comedians....



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,878 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i only watched the first joke on that video, and whoever compiled the list seems to have misunderstood the word 'offensive' right off the bat. there's a difference between black humour and offensive humour.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭boardise



    There's also the matter of five people who died as a result of the storming of the Capitol. Probably fair to say they were terminally cancelled.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,768 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    From say the Educational sector, I'm aware of students who were punished/thrown off their courses for supporting a traditional viewpoint of Marriage and a school chaplain being fired (and investigated by the Police) for suggesting their is an alternative to accepting Progressive dogma. Hence, I suspect the OP and many of the left don't care about cancel culture until the societal wheel turns and it is their turn.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,660 ✭✭✭✭retalivity


    Jimmy Carr has been doing that schtick for 15+ years, even the joke that he made is from a Netflix special that was released on xmas day. However, its only since yesterday he's getting called out on it as certain people/groups have started running with it. Shows it up for exactly what it is, the rent-a-mob will move on to someone/something else shortly



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,878 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    that's so lacking in detail or context that it doesn't even amount to an anecdote. 'supporting a traditional viewpoint of marriage' doesn't tell us anything about why they were purportedly thrown off their course.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,058 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    I heard about it yesterday when it said travellers, I assumed it would be an anti Irish slant, but did not actually read the story of what he said, till today. It is getting a lot of coverage.

    I would not call the Auschwitz Memorial Group (official Museum) a rent a mob in any way either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,509 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    What was the joke?

    Cant find it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,058 ✭✭✭✭anewme




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,878 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    it's in the guardian article about it.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,519 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Boll*x. The same old right wing victim culture silliness regurgitated almost word perfect.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,509 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    The one place I didnt look. Not that funny, have heard lots of variations of it.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Bollocks indeed, only the right didn't lick it off a stone. If anything they've come late to the party copying for themseves the near constant victimhood spouting of every single other identity politic and ism out there. All of them can be pretty much summed up with [insert identity here] are agentless victims of [insert oppressors here]. This oppressed/oppressor narrative has never been so strong. Where once it was largely restricted to average IQ middle class White women with unfortunate hair holding forth in humanities courses in universities it has come to infect most of public and media discourse.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,519 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Oh, sure. I remember a time when feminists moaned about the top grossing female actresses earning less than their male "equivalent" as if there wasn't market forces deciding the worth of entertainers. There was a time when right wing value were based on self empowerment and improvement.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't understand what point you're trying to make.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I am old enough when it was the right wingers who were the censorship types. Banning offensive films, music or books if they were deemed corrupting for young God-fearing children.


    Back then it was cool to be a Liberal sticking two fingers up at the squares in the establishment.


    Amazingly the roles have completely reversed and today i would call myself a conservative in the sense of I want to conserve the free speech and free thought of the 2000's decade. I just want to stay Liberal but the SJW types force my hand on it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 323 ✭✭arthursway


    Could you give some reason why Joe Rogan is a grubby little cultural parasite?

    Or is it just because he isn't far enough left for you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,608 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    It was a problem when others were doing it, but when it's right wing, it's 'well others were doing it first'....

    There's a lot going on in this statement, 'restricted to average IQ middle class White women with unfortunate hair'. You're probably familiar with many of the accusations as to their personal motivation thrown at a certain Barrister qualified recent Lord Mayor of Dublin of Chinese descent while she was in office.

    If not, stay tuned, she announced in the last few days she is running for a Seanad seat and I expect the thread devoted to her on here will be active with many of the same views once again in the coming days.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,608 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    I'd say this type of flipping on positions has led to some people feeling less accepting of him than they were in the past.

    Personally, I avoid his show so don't really have a huge amount of skin in the game but is it unfair of people to express an opinion on him when that is evidently (and understandably) something he does about others?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 323 ✭✭arthursway



    When Joe expresses his opinion he doesn't demand anyone lose their job livelihood or voice.

    Why is it young and co. Can't express their opinion on someone without trying to deplatform someone or take their livelihood or voice away?

    Even psaki commented on it during the week and said that "more could be done". The same administration who would rightly complain about authoritarian regimes in north Korea and china beginning to in turn sound like it them themselves.

    Left or right we should hear all sides of the argument and choose what we like as is our right but we have to let everyone have their voice.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "More can be done" doesn't amount to censorship. It could be anything from maintaining editorial standards or requiring Rogan to have opposing voices in controversial discussions. And they're not making a decision for Spotify regardless.


    And people boycotting a service for the types of content they provide is something everyone is entitled to do. It's exercising freedom of speech and expression. Preventing them would be anti free speech.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 323 ✭✭arthursway


    Yes but why can't the left express their opinions without trying/asking for the opposing side to be deplatformed?

    Isn't that the most anti free speech stance of them all?

    I don't want those with a different opinion to me to have a voice only those that agree with me.

    Maybe I'm looking at it all wrong but it is alarming in my eyes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 625 ✭✭✭Cal4567


    This cancel culture is just the left trying to force their way of living onto normal people. They know they cannot effect change through the democratic process so have spent the last 30 to 40 years progressively promoting identity politics and trying to shame us into submission.

    When people oppose this, they are ridiculed or silenced, with an ever happy media willing to travel through tweets from years ago, to find evidence.

    It has reached parody levels. Thank God, yes god, I don't take it seriously. It appears many hold similar views. And again, thank God they do.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 323 ✭✭arthursway




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,551 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Media has become extremely polarized. It's way more polarized in the US that it is in western Europe.

    So the answer is not that Rogan's podcasts must include the opposing view, but that Spotify must have on it's platform the opposing view. As far as I can see, it does. Because it hosts a wealth of podcasts. So what's the problem?


    edit; Neil Young and Jodie Mitchell didn't just silently remove themselves from Spotify. They did it in protest at Rogan being on it in the hope Spotify would remove him. So it's not a case of just them expressing their opinion, but trying to silence others. They are perfectly entitled to do that, but lets not pretend what it is they are trying to achieve.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,724 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Rogan's podcast has to be treated differently than others on Spotify, because all those other podcasts put their content on Spotify and earn money when people listen to it. Spotify is just a way to access those podcasts.

    With Rogan, Spotify have paid him 100m to exclusively have his podcasts on their platform. As such there's a different relationship between Spotify and Rogan, than with other podcasts.

    Regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees with the current Rogan situations, he's not just like any other podcast on Spotify. There's an entirely different relationship between them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,608 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Wake up kid, it's 2022

    Ireland democratically have been one of the most progressive countries on the planet in most of our lifetimes, with many of the things that have been implemented including same sex marriage, availability of divorce, the right to have an abortion having being achieved because of the willingness to discuss peoples needs and the how it is fair to allow the people to live the life they want in spite of the counter voices of staunchly conservative institutes and individuals.

    The idea that the left cannot affect change through the democratic process is so laughably out of place it doesn't even refer to a situation that existed within this century. It's because they've had such success we have regressives harping back to time past wishing they existed now. They don't. Deal with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,608 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    The scientists who wrote a letter complaining about Rogan misinformation specifically said that they were not asking for him to be removed from the site but that there be better communication as to the message that his show was putting out there.

    That didn't happen and Rogan continued with his misinformation. Young feels strongly about the dangers of this misinformation and so said he would have nothing to do with a company that allowed it to happen without any consideration as to its impact.

    Psaki referring to more being done could just as easily have been talking about accompanying messages with the platform that the content was disputed by medically qualified people rather than him being removed. The last administration tried to ban voices it didn't like from attending press conferences so I don't think Psaki or the Biden administration could be seen to being setting a dangerous precedent, if anything they have dialed back the rhetoric significantly.

    Conservatives look to blame Biden for the ongoing pandemic when there is demonstrable evidence that where it is worst is directly associated with poor vaccine take up. They also remonstrate strongly with him about introducing vaccine mandates and now are angered with his administration having an issue with the unfettered publication of false information in relation to it.

    The fact that other artists as well as young removed their content knowing that Spotify were supporting Rogan simply shows they are principled in their positions and not purely motivated by their own financial gain, many of them obviously can afford to be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,608 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    You most definitely are looking at it wrong if you think that it is something that 'The Left' do. Trump, a central figure in the right wing mindset of the last period of close to ten years wished, as President, that individuals who expressed an opinion he didn't like would be fired for doing so. He regularly castigated and demeaned individuals and organisations whose journalism content he didn't like and tried to ban at least one journalist from the White House.

    When the Dixie Chicks expressed dislike for George W Bush because of him starting a second Gulf war, their content was removed from most country music stations in the southern US states.

    The lady who flipped off Trumps motorcade was fired from her company for doing so. In the UK, the explicitly right wing focused GB News punished a presenter for expressing his individual support for the BLM cause.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭BruteStock


    Nobody gives a fiddlers fart about Neil Young apart from boomers. Young made his play and Spotify's stock went up. He picked a fight and lost , simple as.

    Spotify could fire Rogan and lose 100M. Thats not all they are concerned about. They will lose Rogan listeners , millions? But they will also see a mass exodus by people who may not listen to Rogan , but who value free speech and are anti censorship. These types are everyday people don't post on twitter and message boards. But they will come out and stand up for whats right when needs be , like the Truckers seen across Canada!

    Meanwhile , the heretics on the left will keep squealing like piglets about "misinformation" . What they really want to do is thought policing people they believe are guilty of wrong think.

    There is no law against "misinformation". There is no anti misinformation act. There is no legislation. There is nothing only an insatiable thirst to censor those who express thoughts that go against the status quo.

    Banning Rogan would be an unmitigated disaster for Spotify and they know it. So don't expect Rogan to be going anywhere anytime soon!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,402 ✭✭✭McGinniesta




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭Tipperary animal lover


    The rock has bent the knee... free speech is all about the $$



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Except if Spotify did hypothetically remove Rogan from the platform, that wouldn't be silencing him. He would still be free to have a podcast.. "


    Fyi, "more can be done" was in reference to the poster's claim the Biden administration told Spotify to remove him from the platform.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    She's a political noticebox, as politicians are, and the grist to her mill is playing the victim card when she can. It gets her face in the papers.

    It was a problem when others were doing it, but when it's right wing, it's 'well others were doing it first'....

    Interesting misreading, but nope, I just find it ironic that the right wingers are playing the same cards as everyone else. Well clearly it works. The squeaky wheel gets the grease and the more your cause squeaks the more grease it gets.

    There's a lot going on in this statement, 'restricted to average IQ middle class White women with unfortunate hair'.

    A large percentage of this so called 'left' cancel culture sprang from US campuses in the 90's and spread from there and it was almost entirely the remit of the White middle class, with POC mostly doing their own thing in that culture. Current feminism is almost entirely dominated by White middle class women and their concerns. Women of colour and the working class only get a look in as part of some wishy washy intersectionality, or as tokens for the cause. So yes my average IQ middle class White women with unfortunate hair is a cap that fits more often than it doesn't and it will only tend to rankle those who know there's some truth to it.

    Ireland democratically have been one of the most progressive countries on the planet in most of our lifetimes, with many of the things that have been implemented including same sex marriage, availability of divorce, the right to have an abortion having being achieved because of the willingness to discuss peoples needs and the how it is fair to allow the people to live the life they want in spite of the counter voices of staunchly conservative institutes and individuals.

    Much of that was the understandable counterswing to the Old Ireland of the cassock and wimple - just like the counterswing to the same Old Ireland after The Brits left - and the swing wasn't the landslide it's often painted. Divorce first time out got rejected(I voted yes in my very first vote) got in the second time thankfully. Abortion and SSS marriage got in, again thankfully, but about a third were against both. One can be sure of two things with the Irish electorate; they're so middle of the road they've got white lines painted down their backs, and they'll follow the current of the day. It is of no great shock to me that the crawthumpers remain, it's just their religion that's changed. And it could change again, so long as 'be grand, it doesn't affect me directly" is in play and we're seen to be doing the Right Thing(tm) to whatever external betters we hold in esteem. And I could be pretty sure that if this were the 1950's you would be equally proud of Old Ireland and all her ills, because the vast majority were and you are a product of your culture. In any culture it's always those on the fringes that think differently, for good and ill(mostly the latter).

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,724 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Young made his play and Spotify's stock went up. He picked a fight and lost , simple as.

    Meanwhile , the heretics on the left will keep squealing like piglets about "misinformation" . What they really want to do is thought policing people they believe are guilty of wrong think.

    There is no law against "misinformation". There is no anti misinformation act.

    It's funny how you talk about misinformation, while also saying Spotify's stock went up after Young pulled his songs. Their stock dropped by 2bn.

    Their stock started to rebound again a few days later, but Young pulling his music and the controversy around it definitely damaged their market value.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,608 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Have a look at the review of books in schools going on throughout right leaning states in the US, or consider the attempts to ban books, films, music in Ireland throughout the 20th century.

    Or similar in Russia or Middle East states. Or in China right now also. Where exactly do you think the thought policing is happening in a real and impactful way?

    Are these Leftist administrators who are doing this? Is this more acceptable than saying someone shouldn't spread false information about a disease that has killed millions of people?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,608 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Well, he wasn't happy to see Rogans frequent use of the N word.

    Do you think he should just tolerate it because he didn't know it before now?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,608 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Blame whoever you want.

    Doesn't change the results of the referenda that brought about progressive changes that you want to pretend didn't happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 323 ✭✭arthursway


    ..@TellALS@Tell me how

    You are right both sides are guilty of such acts in the past and to say otherwise would be hypocritical of me.

    Going slightly off topic but not by much I feel..

    My biggest concern on free speech going forward is with the tech giants Facebook/Instagram YouTube and Twitter.

    These companies are now the vessels on to which the dialogue of the planet is now delivered. They have power that kings and Dictators throughout history would of only dreamt of and never thought possible. If someone is deplatformed from these sites they lose their voice to Billions of people.

    These are companies and they have rules you say; Yes you are technically correct but the problem is these companies are heavily left wing that is fact:


    Facebook employee donations:

    92% to Democrats

    8% to Republicans

    Twitter political donations:

    99% Democrats

    1% Republicans.

    So you expect these same left wing employees of these companies who donate to Democratic politicans to hold no bias or let any personal or political ideologies they posesss weep into the moderation or tendencies of these companies?

    That's a big ask a very big ask and you would have more faith in humanity than I currently possess.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,608 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    It's not a misreading though is it, you have previously and frequently expressed dismay at those, particularly women who advocate for their own gender or cause that affects them. Dismissing it as a 'permanent culture of victimhood' I think wss the phrase used more that once in spite of all the evidence that it took people raising their voices for their cause which was warranted in order to initiate change.

    But here suggesting the right 'didn't lick it off a stone' implies they are only doing it as others have shown them how to do so and suggests that well if it was ok for the feminists to do so then of course others can, but lets remember those feminists and they definitely weren't entitled to any advocacy on their own behalf.

    I am always curious when people are focused on the argument cancel culture that sprang from universities or wherever more than they are about the subjugation of thought and advocacy that was largely in practice until universities became too big for the narrative to be controlled entirely. The topic of whether or not cancel culture emerged entirely from such places and if so whether or not that invalidates it is probably worth a separate thread of its own. In the US, certainly throughout recent history, much of the policy makers came through so called ivy league places of education which was attainable largely to those only from a particular wealth and background. What type of philosophies or polices can we assume would have been nurtured in those environments which then found their way in to houses of legislation and members only clubs and board rooms do you think? Were they fine and just but a couple of hippies arguing against war in Vietnam or wherever was the foundation of mindset that is negatively impacting society more than 50 years later?

    Or how about the UK? They have 7000 secondary level schools, and nearly 40% of their Prime Ministers came from just one of them, Eton college. That rises to 75% when looking at the numbers that have studied at either Oxford or Cambridge. We've seen efforts from some of these noted alumini to introduce draconian laws to impact the right to protest which led to the scenes we saw at a vigil for a murder victim last year but the introduction of that legislation causes much less concern for some than someone asking Jimmy Carr to not joke about a particular demographic being murdered en masse. Is this drawing of legislators from such a narrow pool of the UK electorate acceptable? I presume it is given those who call for change and talk about lack of opportunity or representation for others in society, who make up significantly larger numbers percentage wise are dismissed as possessing a victimhood as the status-quo is sought to be preserved.

    I'm not rankled by the 'average IQ middle class women' comment, it's a view I pretty much expected, I am curious about the blinkered analysis that leads for that to be the focus. Although as I pointed out, if someone such as Hazel Chu, intelligent and qualified and all as she is, can be targeted as she has been in the past and will be in the future, and other prominent advocates from a non-stereotypical Irish background receive similarly forceful and negative attention, we can hardly be surprised that they think twice before putting themselves in the firing line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,608 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    There is zero evidence or argument to suggest that Facebook is Left Wing. Permitting ads to push harmful images to teens, facilitating fake news and Russian bot farms to push misinformation are most definitely happening and are most definitely not left wing.

    The employees may be more inclined to be left wing, but the fact that the above goes on while the employees donate to Democrats at the level you suggest (which I presume to be the case) shows that the company is not swayed by what its employees think for the most part.

    Also, what are big tech employees likely to be? Highly educated and urban I think is a fair bet. What type of people are more likely to be Democrat? Those who are 3rd level educated and live in big cities. It would be a surprise if these people were not leaning Democrat.

    But that aside, if we had a time machine and were back in the year 2000 or wherever, and there was this emerging technology that had a chance to literally change every thing in terms of communication, media, news, entertainment, collaboration the economy etc etc. But we also knew of some of the issues that we would be dealing with as a consequence of this some 20 years later. So just imagine that scenario and say, as is more likely to have been the case, Democrats wanted to manage or regulate how this new game changer would evolve. How do you think the Conservatives would have reacted? Do you agree that they would have pushed back against such regulation and said that it was unduly meddling in the free market and influencing the choices of individual people to select and use a platform as they wish.

    Because that's what I think that would have happened given how Conservatives, certainly where these companies are headquartered, see Government influence.

    So, we'd either be in this situation we are in now with claims that social media companies have two much influence because their employees lean democrat or we'd be screaming that government has two much influence because it interfered in the market.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 61 ✭✭stellamere


    Political correctness was originally about politeness and basic decency; like respecting the individual and not judging people by their physical attributes, race etc. All admirable objectives so far.

    The problem alot of people have with today's PC culture exponents, the "woke" for a better word, is that they are hypocrites.

    They are like the father walloping his child while shouting "its never OK to use violence."

    The lack of self awareness is astonishing sometimes. Any affront at the alter of PC is met with an entirely un PC reaction.

    This is only my opinion, but I think a good deal of the PC crowd are attention seeking, preachy, arrogant, insufferable, self entitled, self regarding, self serving, small minded, rude and anything but PC. Otherwise they're grand.

    There are some on here saying cancel culture doesn't exist. Someone mentioned George Hook and they are 100% right. All he did was to have the same view as the 12 members of the jury in a trial he was commenting on. Because his views didn't correspond with the PC crowd he was cancelled.

    Kevin Myers was completely and shamefully cancelled, on the laughable pretense of antisemitism, despite him being probably the one pro Jewish journalist about.

    We have a problem in that Kevin myers and George Hook are contrary bastards. But they were our cranky bastards and didn't mind going against the grain. We need our contrarians to keep manners on the rest and offer different views. Neither of them are dangerous but they are "troubling" (a popular nebulous meaningless word now used), and more power to them.

    Who are our contrarians now? Feckin john Waters and your wan...God help us.



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