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All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Conspiracies that have been discovered over the years:

    Horse meat in burgers, because someone was trying to make more money by using cheaper meat.

    Car manufacturers faking emissions results, because someone was trying to make more money by not needing to comply with the full regulations.

    Money syphoned out of employee pensions, because someone was trying to make more money for themselves.

    Newspaper hacking into people's voice mails, because someone was trying to sell more papers and make more money.

    Religious group hiding details of abuse, because they liked being rich and powerful and didn't want to lose that status.

    Making people wear masks during a global pandemic, because...???



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    These are all individual groups, who are acting to further their own goals, using the pandemic, it doesn't have to be a big global conspiracy for all groups to succeed.


    Those things may well be happening, but for any of them to be a conspiracy they kind of do have to be a conspiracy. Nobody doubts that pharma companies are each trying to get their products used by more governments than the other. Or that mask manufacturers are trying to sell as many masks as possible.

    But if there is a conspiracy about the reasons for any of these things happening, such that the mask manufacturers, pharmaceutical companies and government are all working together to do something evil then that needs to be detailed for it to be a conspiracy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭ohnohedidnt


    I agree, but they don't have to be working together to all succeed. I don't think there is a large global conspiracy in play, rather a bunch of separate entities all using one event to further their goals, and when this happens it can look like one huge conspiracy.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Trying to further the goals of their organisation isn't a conspiracy though.


    Using illicit methods and falsifying results to further their goals whilst claiming something else is happening would be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭dePeatrick


    Don’t know if you can call those conspiracies, Corruption all right.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    They probably don't meet the scale of what conspiracy theorists think is going on constantly around us, but that only they are aware of. But would meet the legal definition I think, just need more than one person planning to do something illegal together.



  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭ohnohedidnt


    ....It makes people feel safer

    ....We thought they would work initially and admitting that they probably don't do that much would look like we don't know what we're doing.

    ...It excludes people who don't comply with our direction from certain places, and that creates compliance

    .....So, initially you make a small request and once the person agrees to this they find it more difficult to refuse a bigger one (Freedman & Fraser, 1966)

    When the pandemic was first apparent in Jan 2020, I bought loads of masks, I have thousands and many more were seized in China, I did that because I read studies on mask effectiveness and they showed masks were up to 80% effective against flu. So I was wearing a mask in Jan and everyone was looking at me like I was a crazy conspiracy theorist. Then it became apparent they they probably don't work, so I stopped wearing them, about 2 weeks later they became mandatory, and when I say they don't really work....I'm a crazy conspiracy theorist.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Saying that masks don't work doesn't mark you out as a conspiracy theorist, assuming that you are able to explain what and why and how and when you think they don't work.

    Saying that masks don't work because they are being used as a way to control the population, or to track us, or something else along those lines... But then not being able to explain why someone would want to be controlling the population by enforcement of mask wearing is what would mark someone out as a conspiracy theorist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭ohnohedidnt


    I know, I agree with you. But conspiracy theorist is a label that gets thrown around for anybody who question the official narrative on anything. I don't think there is a big conspiracy. Some organizations are cheating to get ahead, some people are lying but they're not all conspiring together.



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭generic_throwaway


    Big mask must be making a killing. Clearly Big Mask has more shadow power than Big Everything Else.


    Couple of serious points:

    1. Masks would seriously interfere with the ability to use facial recognition software. Not clear why the Illuminati would kneecap themselves like that.
    2. Masks have been used to prevent the spread of colds for decades in Asia. It never caught on here, but it's not a new thing. It's typical American- and Euro-centrism to suggest this is a new sinister development. But then the Q-Anon crowd have never been known for their broad knowledge of other countries.
    3. Oh, and one weirdly long-running one: masks do not stop you catching COVID, but they can reduce the spread if you (unknowingly) have it and are wearing one. COVID conspiracist types must at some level understand that we are not in a binary world where things either work or do not work. Things can work to a degree.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,190 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    There's no such thing as a "pro-vaccine group" in the same way there isn't a "pro medical treatment group".

    Pharmaceutical companies make revenue, mask-making companies make revenue, laptop companies make revenue. All of which made increased revenue during this pandemic due to increased demand. To pick out one and claim something malevolent is going on is very lazy appeal to motive.

    The WEF is an economic forum held every year, they theory-craft a better future, increased sustainability, mobility, renewables, etc. This year, insane people have decided to latch onto it and pretend something malevolent is going on. The same way they claim there's something malevolent with vaccines, with pharmaceutical companies, with measures against the pandemic, etc. Note the pattern.

    Your local TD's are "hungry" for data on us, why?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,190 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    You are claiming that masks don't work?

    How does the virus spread according to you?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    (a) isn't a problem anymore. WEF has identified the solution: World Economic Forum on Twitter: "This is how our lives could soon look. Take a peak at the future: https://t.co/lOLgPc95VB https://t.co/sR7l66C95C" / Twitter


    “Facial recognition systems are often stumped by face masks but your heartbeat is just as unique as your face,”



  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭ohnohedidnt


    There are pro vaccine groups:

    Investing in global health organizations aimed at increasing access to vaccines created a 20-to-1 return in economic benefit, billionaire Microsoft co-founder and philanthropist Bill Gates told CNBC on Wednesday.

    Over the past two decades, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has donated “a bit more than $10 billion” into mainly three groups: the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization, the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria, and the Global Polio Eradication Initiative.


    Pfizer for example have made billions making vaccines, whistle blowers have said proper procedures were not followed. Maddie de Garay was paralyzed by the vaccine during trials and it was reported as abdominal pain to the FDA, I'd call that malevolent.


    The WEF great reset plan involves Corporations having power in government of countries through stakeholder capitalism, the UN signed a strategic partnership with the WEF in 2019, they also said the pandemic was an opportunity to implement the great reset, that's not really theory crafting, they're acting or trying to act to change how countries are governed.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't think so. Sure Sturgeon said the other day that masks may (which usually means 'will') be required for years in Scotland.


    Ireland has ignored the CTA for close to two years. It's the only one of the countries that requires a test to enter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,323 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Except for all the ones they were lifted. Looks like you've flip flopped again and are now claiming that it's 100% of measures.


    Wish you'd make up your mind.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,323 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    What would call someone who claimed that the WEF is secretly ploting to take over the world and install a global communist government by 2030?


    Could you point out some examples of people "just questioning the official narrative?"


    Cause I think we can point out a lot more examples of folks claiming wild conspiracy theories.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,190 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Those aren't "pro-vaccine" groups, those are groups trying to get vaccines to poorer people. Vaccines are effective medical treatment and overwhelmingly safe, there isn't some big debate over this. The fact that you use the term "pro-vaccine" comes across like you are trying to infer there is.

    "Pfizer have made billions making vaccines" - Nothing wrong there. Samsung have made billions making electronics.

    "Maddie de Garay was paralyzed by the vaccine during trials" - Vaccine disinformation - https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/vaccine-misinformation-poised-spike-covid-shots-kids-roll-rcna4360

    "The WEF great reset plan" - This year's annual economic forum has been latched onto by conspiracy theorists https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,190 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Okay, and?

    Without resorting to innuendo and hints, try to explain the conspiracy that has been conjured in your head upon learning this. E.g. "the Irish government will use heartbeat sensors to.."



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,487 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Did you miss the opening shot deliberately? Read the words. Do you understand what ‘could’ means?




  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭ohnohedidnt


    That's only part of the story, they also discussed how to get mRNA vaccines to the masses, discussed what sort of event would trigger enough of a panic to get people to take the new mRNA vaccines. This was pre-covid, they were discussing universal flu vaccines, but it's just an example that groups wanted to push new vaccines to the masses. I'm not saying it's evil or anything like that, but there were plenty of people who wanted new vaccines and more vaccine uptake not just for poor countries


    If somebody is in hospital with Covid and they die its a Covid death for sure, regardless of 4/5 co-morbidities, if a girl becomes paralyzed within hours of taking a vaccine during a trial, its just anxiety? The link to the vaccine may not be understood, but if 1000 people are given a vaccine and one is paralyzed hours later, at the very least I'd call that a failure and restart the trial. Its my opinion that too much has been invested in the vaccine, both politically and otherwise for that trial to fail.


    On the WEF thing I don't get the relevance of that article, I'm just saying that the WEF want to implement the great reset, and that it involves corporations being involved in governance of nations. I don't think they had anything to do with the pandemic, they just have a plan which they said we should implement that would change how Countries are governed. There's no conspiracy,



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭generic_throwaway


    Right, so this problem has been solved by the Illuminati. So as soon as we are all being blasted with lasers 24/7, we will know something is up.

    Should be any day now.

    (Note how all these terrible things are always in the future, like the return of Jesus? I wonder why.)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,190 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    "That's only part of the story, they also discussed how to get mRNA vaccines to the masses, discussed what sort of event would trigger enough of a panic to get people to take the new mRNA vaccines. This was pre-covid, they were discussing universal flu vaccines, but it's just an example that groups wanted to push new vaccines to the masses. I'm not saying it's evil or anything like that, but there were plenty of people who wanted new vaccines and more vaccine uptake not just for poor countries"

    Obviously. We want to beat diseases and viruses. My point is that you are trying to project there is a divide in the consensus by using that term, when there isn't. Likewise we don't have "pro-Holocausters" or "Pro round earthers".

    "If 1000 people are given a vaccine and one is paralyzed hours later" - 10's of thousands were involved in vaccine trials. At one point one of the vaccines was entirely put on hold and investigated because one person in the trial had a strong adverse reaction. We now know that e.g. approx. 5 in a million people go into anaphylactic shock after receiving the vaccine. However, this is deemed an acceptable risk due to the number of lives these vaccines are saving.

    WEF thing - you are claiming that corporations will be involved in the governance of Ireland. Right, be specific, in what way, how will it work and when will this be implemented? (No links to videos, blogs, "look it up", etc)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Your response to WEF talking about our heartbeats being measured is 'Okay'? Not horrifying?



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭generic_throwaway


    You realise that potential pandemics occur on a regular basis? So it was only a matter of time before the next big one came along? I presume you are old enough to remember the ones that looked dangerous but ultimately fizzled out over the last few decades? And you've seen the economic and social impact of a pandemic now, right?

    So why for the love of god is it suspicious that people were concerned about this and trying to plan against it??

    Research seems to indicate that people who fall for unrealistic conspiracy theories 'jump the gun' and form beliefs based on less evidence than most people do. If you find yourself going down these rabbit holes, it makes sense to step back and ask what other evidence is out there, and what evidence there is that where you are being led is wrong (or downright ridiculous).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,190 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Explain why you are horrified? Answer the question

    Heartbeats are all individual, in the future we could measures heartbeats to... (fill in your answer)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,323 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    You're welcome to actually explain what the conspiracy there is to be afraid of.

    Otherwise it's just more of your same vague nonsense like the idea that the WEF is trying to mircochip people/turn people into cyborgs.

    @ohnohedidnt Why aren't you pulling up gortanna for these claims? Is it because you agree with them or...?



  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭Maewyn Succat


    Why are you worried about your heartbeat being measured? What's so horrifying about it?

    I'm assuming you actually go outside sometimes? How often do you think you are recorded by a camera in your daily life? I'm sure you realise if you carry your phone with you your movements and location can be tracked constantly.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭generic_throwaway


    ...pay for your groceries maybe?

    Given that lasers are involved, it's going to be pretty hard to get this working on anyone who doesn't walk up and hold their wrist under a scanner for - I dunno, 30 seconds? How long does it take to uniquely identify a heartbeat? It's going to take a while for sure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,213 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    You must live in a very sheltered world or on another planet if you have never heard of government ministers, congressmen or governors breaking rules on drink driving, driving without insurance, speeding etc. Do you believe that is because all politicians believe road safety rules are pointless and there is no need for them when there are verifiable statistics to show the opposite ?

    It`s complete nonsense and anyone saying such rules and regulations are only there to exercise some kind of control over populations as part of a devious plan by politicians worldwide would rightly be called out as a conspiracy nut-job.

    The world is not short of people who make fools of themselves when partying or believing individually in every walk of life they are above the rules. To believe that some politicians have broken the rules during this pandemic because politicians worldwide are only using these regulations/recommendations as part of a secret masterplan that nobody knows how or what it is supposed to achieve, or who is supposedly behind it is as idiotic as believing that road safety rules are part of the same masterplan.

    You also must have been off planet or living in that sheltered world over the last two years if you believe that now with the very limited rules on mask wearing and vaccine passports they still constitute 99% of all the restrictions that were in place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,213 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    I found Phil Hogan a bit of a joke long before pandemic restrictions with him being Enda Kenny`s consigliere. His thrashing around and floundering over water charges and his subsequent appointment as an European Commissioner only adding to the comic farce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,190 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Conspiracy theorists rarely if ever challenge other conspiracy theorists here, no matter how contradictory their views are. But personally not sure if I agree with your last point of confronting them directly over it asking them to explain their absence of a reply to another poster, not 100% sure, but I think they can use that as a point of complaint. Usually I just highlight it as a glaring observation.

    As for the heartbeats thing and how it could be used in future tech

    Normal person response "cool, might be useful"

    Conspiracy theorist response "the dystopian government will use it to control/track me"

    Never changes



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,323 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    They would use your observation as a point of complaint too.

    At that point it would be whinging about "lumping me in with the silly stuff."


    Though Gortanna is doing an excellent job of showing the types of claims that are common in this thread that some posters seem keen to pretend don't exist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭ohnohedidnt


    There is a divide in consensus, they had new vaccine technologies that will take a very long time to get approved and even if they did get approved they'd still have to convince people to take them, and they discussed what type of event might break the hesitancy. In other words you have people who want people to take the vaccines, and people who don't want to take them and need to be pushed.

    There were 1,131 children in that trial.

    I'm not claiming corporations will be involved in the governance of Ireland, I'm saying that is what the WEF advocate for, and suggested we implement. They have advocated for this for a very long time long before Covid, I think since 2008. Its not difficult to find, they have published multiple papers describing stakeholder capitalism and an multi-stakeholder ecosystem where corporations are involved in governance to help with global warming and poverty and a multitude of other things. You look it up. Its on their website.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭ohnohedidnt


    Who said it was suspicious? I didn't say it was a conspiracy theory. I just stated a fact. This is part of the problem with this thread, you guys want to turn everything into a conspiracy theory, so that you dismiss it.

    My point is that there are people who believed that some good could come from a pandemic that allowed for faster uptake of some vaccines. In other words there were some groups who saw the pandemic as a chance to further their goals.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,487 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Yeah. People that started businesses, people who decided that there is a better life than the rat race, people who now want to work from home, etc are antichrists!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,190 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    There isn't a divide in expert consensus on whether vaccines are effective and overwhelmingly safe. We've had them for hundreds of years. Vaccine hesitancy is an issue fueled by disinformation, of the likes you produced in this thread.

    I know what stakeholder capitalism is, I'm also aware of what's on the WEF website, so I am curious as to why you are concerned about it? This is why I'm asking for specifics.



  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭ohnohedidnt




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,487 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    I’m talking about people taking advantage of the pandemic to further their own goals. Many have.

    I’m personally taking advantage of it to ensure that I will work from home in future to further my goal of spending more time with family.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭ohnohedidnt


    So you'd have no problem taking Pandemrix then? The "perfectly safe" vaccine from 2009?

    Why would I not want corporations having a say in the governance of the Country? Because I don't get to vote for them, so there would unelected individuals having a say in how the country is governed. What would that mean for regulations?, far fewer restrictions on corporations I would imagine. I don't trust most corporations as it is, they only have one motivation, and that's money. Would you want Monsanto having a seat at the table of Irish government?



  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭ohnohedidnt




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,487 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Is there a check list of topics that anti-vaxxers use? It’s no surprise that Pandemrix got name checked right about now. The list must be in number order.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,487 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    So it just makes your point ridiculous. Many many people are trying to improve their lot during the pandemic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,323 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Gonna circle back round to "Doctors endorsed smoking" in a bit I bet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭ohnohedidnt


    What are the chances of the brain damaging, rushed through trials vaccine, being brought up in a discussion about the current rushed through trials vaccine in the most recent pandemic? Hardly shocking it's number one on the list.



  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭ohnohedidnt


    What point is ridiculous? What do you think my point was?



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭generic_throwaway


    Fair enough: but people reading this could have the impression that you will be walking around being tracked by your heartbeat. This isn't the case. There's an article on the technology here - bear in mind it reports claims from a company trying to sell this product, and even then it talks about 'in good conditions' 'up to 95% accuracy', presumably when you are pointing this big laser-equipped instrument at a single person.

    Walking around with your phone is probably a bit more problematic.


    Edit: great, I quoted the wrong post and can't change it. Man, this new platform sucks balls.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,528 ✭✭✭copeyhagen


    RB talking about microchips being inserted as covid passports... seems crazy..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,487 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Are you referring to the anti-vaxxer discussion topic checklist?



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