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Anyone thinking of emigrating?

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Comments

  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Note, that I said supporting people who contribute very little to the economy, such as the NGOs. There's a rash of activists, organisations and NGOs which the government supports to represent various disadvantaged groups, or agendas.

    I'm not disagreeing with your point that the money is aimed at private hands, just that there's more going on than just them. Theres the people and organisations that game the system. So much wastage.



  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    To judge that Dublin is a horrible place to live means you have to find a place to live in first to come to that judgement. I find that rather impossible.

    I lived in Dublin for almost two years, living in three different locations within the city proper. Since then, I've lived abroad in... 9 cities (two capitals, and the remainder having populations higher than 3 million people).. and Dublin is a kip. It's improved a lot during certain periods, but when it improves, it comes back down again hitting a new low.

    The fundamental problem with Dublin is that it's a dirty, grimy city, with little inclination to make it safer for the people who stay there. It can be a very fun city, but the fun available doesn't warrant the cost to live there. I'd say that the majority of my friends who have lived and left Dublin, said that their problem was either the scummy dirty environment, or the feeling that it was not safe.

    I've been back in Ireland for two years now, looking for work for the last year, and while there's loads of work there... I have zero interest moving there again. If I fail to find decent work outside Dublin, I'll move abroad again. Honestly, I'd need to be offered some serious salary/benefits to encourage me to live there again, and then, I'd probably live outside and commute.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The current housing crisis in Ireland can hardly be described as a high standard of living, but foreigners coming into the country lured by employment opportunities at various American IT businesses certainly don't know that, plus they are also young, straight out of university and probably a bit naïve (as we all were when we were young) and oblivious to the housing crisis. They end up living in some house or flat share which can often only be found via various facebook groups. The jobs they fill usually require foreign and native language skills, thus they don't really compete with the Irish on the job market.

    Also these American IT companies pay for relocation ( sometimes up to 9000 Euros ) provided that their employees stay at least for one year. After one year they usually move on due to lack of housing, getting sick of the property market and the internal tricks and games by their managers and/or hard to achieve performance targets. Thus the high turnover of employees at Oracle, Microsoft, Facebook, Google and Salesforce.

    Among the winners are either Irish landlords charging high rents, the Irish tax man cashing in on tax of revenue made from renting or Irish recruitment companies having recurring business year on year.


    I'd agree with the fact that certain parts of Dublin are dirty and grimy, but that's in any city in Europe. Back in 2017 I certainly never felt unsafe in Dublin, however I've always felt that "if push came to shove I'd have no support and nobody would care" kind of feeling. Public transport and Dublin Bus is not very reliable, but the LUAS is certainly good.

    The prices in supermarkets tend to be higher than in the UK, or other EU countries, rents certainly are very high, even higher than London or Paris. Opportunities with big name American IT companies, yes, but it's mostly "inside sales roles" with hard to reach sales targets, or internal political sales targets.



  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Except that I didn't describe the housing crisis as being a high standard of living. You did.

    I've been an expat for 14 years living outside of Ireland, and I didn't look at the wide range of negatives when choosing a place. I tended to pick out a number of positives, and use that as the basis for my decision (except where the work was the primary reason, and the location was secondary to that).

    Do a search for Ireland online, and view the kind of reports available from a simple google search. The vast majority are sites giving Ireland glorious reviews... which will be the case for most migrants coming here. They'll search online to see if there are any obvious red flags, but a housing crisis isn't going to be listed as such. Even during the height of the Barcelona rental issues, there were placed available to rent (I had no problems finding a place anyway), and the same happens for Ireland. The true issue is for those who want to buy, and that's not generally an issue for initial immigration.

    Oh, and I've had two foreign friends (Chinese) move to Dublin this year (in the last 12 days actually), and they got rental places really quickly. But then, they're professionals, earning good money, and their companies provide rent relief for their employees.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I haven't been to Dublin recently, but back in 2017 finding a one bedroom apartment for rent in Dublin was a nightmare. I recall queues outside of every apartment when there was a viewing organized by an estate agent, and often I was viewing with 30 or 40 others. I could hardly call this a high standard and neither was the quality of construction of the property, it was actually below average by EU standards. Maybe it's easier now, during the pandemic, I don't know.

    The subject Dublin housing crisis sure doesn't get a lot of coverage, and as google search results are concerned, they can give results as they please. It's called "Search Engine Optimization". After all Google invested in Ireland, thus they have to tell the world that the investment is a great choice.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭Motivator


    The amount of houses and apartments bought by MNCs to house their employees in Dublin in 2019 and early 2020 was insane. A friend of mine lives in Ballsbridge and two houses beside him were bought by a bug US firm who house employees there. Rent is taken from their wages each month. Huge amount of corporate owned residential properties in Dublin, or at least there was.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭BuildTheWall


    You see, the problem is we don’t have a centre right populist party. Society as a whole has moved very far to the left and FG/FF will wear any face as long as they think it will get them votes. Once upon a time that was right wing and traditionalist, now it’s far left identity politics.



  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Oh, I've heard from other friends that its next to impossible to find a decent place within a reasonable price range, especially for anyone wanting to solo rent. Which honestly bothers me, as by the time I'd reached my 40s, I'd already decided never to share again.. but Dublin seems to be the kind of place where it's hard to avoid that, unless you're willing to pay the big bucks... or simply stay in the outer suburbs and commute. (although, then again, I'm used to long commutes from living abroad, from 1-3 hours, and I doubt Dublin is worse than that)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I am only guessing that some apartments or a larger number of apartments are reserved by bigger corporations, not American IT companies, but financial companies on some right of first refusal basis to their employees relocating to Dublin.

    I also doubt that 1600 Euros per month will get you a one bedroom in Dublin, I'd say, you're looking more at 1800 per month, if it's supposed to be something halfway decent. And then there are certainly "bidding wars" with several punters. With utter certainty, London, Paris and Frankfurt or Munich are offering more quality for money in this aspect and offer more culture and museums on top. Thus it doesn't surprise me, if the ongoing housing crisis is leading to thoughts of Irish people considering emigrating again.

    Apparently things in Dublin are that bad that sex for rent seems to come up: ( I am not in doubt that this doesn't happen in other cities in the EU, but considering Dublin's exorbitant rents it doesn't surprise me)




  • Posts: 3,842 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don’t get that. Inland Spain is dirt cheap. As is rural france and Italy. Just be close to a reasonable sized town with some medical facilities



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  • Posts: 3,842 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Come on, Düsseldorf is a pretty average and rather ugly city by European standards. Lots of north German cities have little character. I say that as someone who lived in Germany for a few years.

    you are right about rental costs of course. There are genuine complaints about Ireland these days; rent, health and weather. The “nothing to do” or “Dublin is ugly” rants aren’t that useful. Or that other countries have more museums. Nobody is emigrating anywhere for museums.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,558 ✭✭✭✭dreamers75


    Have 4 adult kids (17,19,21,22) absolutley want them to move away and live life, wife is the complete opposite and wants them to live here forever.

    I did it worked in a few countries, best **** thing I ever did and if given the chance would do it again.



  • Posts: 3,842 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭maninasia




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,047 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    No State income tax in Texas. The federal structure is a progressive one, so the first $10k is at 10%, $10k-$40k at 12%, anything over $40k at 22%, so EUR 36,000 would come out as about $41k, so a little under $5,000 for the year in income tax. Property taxes will vary greatly depending on what county you're in, but the cities tend to be higher, it's about 2.2% here, with a median house price of $300k, so that's total tax bill of $11,000 or so for the year.

    On the plus side, I pay about $50 to tax my car for the year.



  • Posts: 2,814 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I find this statement quite odd to be honest. How can your adult children ‘live life’ abroad, but not in Ireland?

    I lived abroad for nearly 12 years myself. During that time, I worked, took holidays, went on nights out, got involved in a sport, had a couple of relationships. Back in Ireland, I do pretty much the same things, except now I’m married with kids. Pretty much living life both home and abroad.

    Also, I don’t understand what’s stopping you from moving abroad. Your children are adults, albeit the 17 year probably still requires parental support for a few more years. Unless you have aging parents, who require your support, what’s stopping you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 178 ✭✭Board.surf


    Ireland isn't as black and white as those people let on. 2 adults and two kids in our family. On about 70k a year. Private health insurance, braces payments, 2 cars etc. We save 1,000 to 1,500 a month. We rent in a small midlands town. It is more than possible.

    Housing is a joke. A nightmare in Ireland. But the rest is not bad at all. You just need to be able to watch your finances. Something I realised many Irish people are incapable of after living in the US for 7 years. Many focus on the negatives and obsess, while always looking for an exit. As for the "there's nothing to do" brigade, there are countless beautiful beaches, mountains, hikes etc. People will be bored if they choose to be. It depends on your interests.

    Cinema outside of Dublin (in our town we have 2) is €5 to €10 per person. Hardly 5 times the price of Germany?

    You're working scenario is very similar to what we had (single earner family etc). I'm a very cynical and caution person but I would say that if you want to make that move, it is more than possible. Apart from housing, our move was about as difficult as I expected. Ireland is wonderful in so many ways. It just comes down to your knowledge and how you use what is available. You may find that whiners want to whine and aren't willing to figure out the eccentric scenarios that life may entail here. Don't listen to people who simply whine and complain in an unrealistic way. Send me a message if you'd like and I'd be happy to outline the situation you'd be facing if you made the leap. Keep in mind Germany back to Ireland is a lot easier than USA back to Ireland (with US citizen kids, US drivers license which is no good here, no pps numbers etc).


    P.S Kilkenny is just one example of a city that has every bit of what your daughters activities. She'd have all of what you listed. We had all the fears as you listed and we've figured it all out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 178 ✭✭Board.surf





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 178 ✭✭Board.surf


    I moved back from the US to Ireland. Ireland is not more expensive than the states I have an in depth knowledge of. Particularly when you factor in the cost of health insurance Here Versus There.

    Petrol is twice the price, but cars here are twice as economical. Some things here are much cheaper such as going out to eat at a high quality restaurant.

    In no way at all could myself or my American wife agree with your statements. And we have made that move. Even housing in the US is now as insane as here. I'm not sure what comparisons you have made. Maybe Dublin (Dundrum or something), but I find it difficult to agree with any of what you have said.

    Wages in the US depend on the market you work in. The same as Ireland. If you are actually realistically interested in moving home, give me a shout and I'd be happy to advise you. However, your mood seems to be steered more toward excuses not to.


    Housing? Yes its a huge issue. However, my friends in the states (and elsewhere) are in the same boat. It is overpriced for what you get in Ireland. Other than that, your costs in Ireland depend on the lifestyle you choose. In Ireland for example, half of our housing estate drive a ridiculous Audi (bought on pcp)? Then that says it all. Then they whine about not being able to save. In the US, they do the same while driving a large pickup. However, they struggle to pay off their credit card charges which were used to pay for their medical bills. So lets not paint a silly rosey picture of the US reality please. It's far from peachy in comparison. Particularly for anyone with a medical need, who aspire to ever having children or....well anyone who doesn't fit a very specific american mould (you likely fit if you're there).



  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The sex for rent ads come up every few years. They've been done before plenty of times (even when there was plenty of housing)... and as with most things like this, it's a minority involved.



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  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Not quite. Saying that Dublin is ugly isn't a rant... I'd say it's helpful because it provide some motivation to change it. All the same you don't have to live in Dublin, and there's options for commuting, or other places in Ireland with employment and better living options.

    Regarding the nothing to do comments... The problem is the lack of a "eating out" culture in Ireland, which you often find in other countries or particular cities. What's available tends to be too expensive for a regular aspect of socialising. As such as Pub remains a central aspect for society, even while the pub culture itself has been dying in many places in Ireland. Now, personally, I'm loving the spread of nice cafes and coffee culture in Ireland, but all the same, options are kinda limited in Dublin or other Irish locations for social activities.

    Dusseldorf isn't a nice city.. but then it's not the capital either. I liked Munich far more, but still not a decent comparison. So, if the comparison is between Capitals, Berlin blows Dublin out of the water... and yes, the range of options for socialising/having fun is staggering.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭HBC08


    You think Google are using SEO to hide the housing crisis in Dublin so they can still attract talent to come to Dublin to work for them?

    I really don't think that's the case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I would never rant about Dublin being ugly. Also, I always enjoyed the pubs and restaurants in and around Temple Bar and no, I am not a heavy drinker, but the choice of going out is good. Also the movies, and the IFC cinema as well and then there is the GAA. Yes, some modern recent architecture could have been more blending in conservative. In my opinion Dublin offers mostly everything I would look for, not too large as a city, not too small, and pre-pandemic decent flight connections to anywhere I wanted to go.

    To me the only issue in Dublin and most parts of Ireland is housing and the high price of rents. I also noticed that this subject doesn't get much international coverage, and also when I raise this subject in a conversation in Ireland or among the Irish, the housing crisis is always downplayed or denied outright.

    By comparison, I've lived in many places in Europe, even Germany, but nowhere was renting and housing as tough as in Dublin and any salary even from a top notch German organization in Frankfurt will sound very small, one once considers paying rent in Dublin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I do not know, but it's certainly a possibility. Technically it can be done.

    As written before, most people working for Google and the likes in Dublin only stay for one or two years, and then later on move on, back to Europe or somewhere else up the hierarchy in the organization. They tend to end up renting in Dublin, paying for a room close to or above 1000 pounds per month. Microsoft even advertises this openly, with "start here ( Dublin ) and then go anywhere".

    If you like to rent a one bedroom on your own, expect 1600 per month for something halfway decent, but also 1800 or 1900 are easily asked for monthly rents. You'd need something like another 700 per month, just to make ends meet, gas, electricity, internet, food, occasionally going out, so you can calculate your minimum expected salary. And then you haven't put anything away in savings or life insurance, etc.... I can tell you with utter certainty, London, in Zone3, is way easier.

    I don't know if you've ever worked in one of these American IT organization, but constant change and turnover of employees is very very high. The main motivation only seems to be "international experience" with a "well known company" for a limited time, and get more traction on the job market in their own countries. I've seen that more than often myself.

    So if you're in the age bracket of your early 30ies, the reason for emigrating would only be the cost of renting and other overpriced things. In your early 30ies you're in general done with university, have some kind of experience, and want to live on your own, ( NOT sharing, other than your girlfriend) but in this age you don't have the most savings as well. I'd say, I completely understand the original poster if he is pissed of at the current situation.

    And then there are countries like Australia or Canada or NZ, who gladly issue permanent visas for people in their 30ies with some professional experience and a degree. Whether things are better there is to be debated, but in your 30ies one is also still flexible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,699 ✭✭✭atilladehun


    I'll believe that when i see it. People talk left butt vote right.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭NSAman


    Thank you, I hope your move back to ireland is a happy one.

    people have different view points. It all depends on the circumstances you make and find yourself in. Absolutely, each country has it’s good points and bad points, no one has said any differently.

    i do take exception with the fact I have painted the USA as a rosey painting, it is far from it. It is a tough place to live until you get on your feet. However, once on your feet it is much easier, the same as in any country.

    i also said that prices in the US had risen crazily in the past two years, that’s very true.

    i stand by my statements about housing. If your are looking at mad markets in the large urban areas, then housing is unaffordable for Americans the same as it is in ireland. Where I live housing IS affordable. Starter homes costs from $80k upwards. Name for me one location in ireland where a starter home is €68k? Outside of Dublin most homes cost from €200k? Rent where I am for a 2/3 bed home is around $700-$1000 pm.

    yes health insurance is expensive, mine is paid by the company as is my partners as are all the people I work with. The deductible is €250. Should I visit I the emergency room, initial fee of $120 (which is refunded under our policy) and a max of 15 minute wait or the fee is not charged. In ireland,to visit a&e cost I think is €100 and is at a few hours wait (I know this last time was 15 hours before they lost the records of the person I had brought). Irish health system is terrible but “free”. As a middle-aged person, it concerns me seeing the whole system, as it does most Irish people.

    There are differences between the states and ireland with job opportunities. 350 million V’s 5 million, there are bound to be. Wages ARE higher in the states. Current minimum wage where I am is $15 (although the state minimum is lower). There are jobs everywhere. Yes I hate the American employment system which gives damn all job security to people (and yes as a business owner I am changing the local way of employing people that’s why I have zero turn over of people in the past 10 years and people looking to join )

    car tax is 120 a year, car costs are less than half of ireland, 0% rate of interest has been the norm for 6 years on a new car purchase, cars have been affordable. Insurance is much cheaper especially for younger people.

    tax…. I think that speaks for itself in relation to ireland and the states…I don’t think many people will disagree, ireland is terrible (especially considering the services you receive)

    everyone makes choices and there is a LOT wrong with the states. I certainly do not have rose tinted glasses on when discussing it, there are HUGE problems in the States socially and economically.

    i am not making any excuses when it comes to trying to move back home. I am being realistic from my perspective. Everyone has different views and experience of THEIR situation. Your experience will differ from mine. I would love to come home permanently, would it affect my lifestyle …absolutely. I am not making excuses not to come home, I am being realistic about the move. I have a partner to think of and kids. They are my priority. In many respects my happiness is secondary.

    All I can say about myself is that emigrating has been good to me (and the USA was not the first country I emigrated to). Everyone should try it, if it suits them personally.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    With 200 K for a home just outside of Dublin you're rather optimistic, I'd say.

    I you're more looking for 500 k upwards for a 3 bedroom house, - that is if you're lucky and there are no real bidding wars. Asking price is one thing, bidding wars another thing.

    In comparison however to other cities, the prices to buy in Dublin are not that high, if you have a bit of a financial background and are of a certain age.

    If one is in the early 30ies, I doubt that that's the case. It won't be cheaper to buy in other places in Canada, or the US, or Australia, but rent sure tends to be lower and stock of better quality than in Dublin.



  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think the criticisms that people have about Dublin are being unfairly dismissed as being a rant. Dublin has some nice parts to it, but generally speaking the inner city itself is very dirty... and the combination of the weather, type of architecture, and often closed buildings makes it look very dismal at times. Nice city when it's sunny, but this is still Ireland with Irish weather, so...

    I do think Dublin has improved a lot in terms of things to do, but my comment was more to do with Ireland in general. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of new activities as opposed to the continuance of the past ways... but honestly, it's not a big issue for me. I'm not going to live in Dublin, but I can appreciate the comments by people who are critical of it, especially when comparisons are being made with other European cities... especially, when the high cost of living there is taken into account.

    As for rents/property, I dunno who you're exposed to in Ireland, but the housing crisis/rents problems has been on pretty much everyone's lips for the last two years. Internationally, few people know, and even less care. But then, it's the same with the issues of renting/property in Barcelona, or Paris. Few people care unless they're having or had problems themselves. As for it being downplayed... I think a lot of people are biased by the reports of Dubliners refusing to move a few miles away from their Mammy, and/or refusing to commute from one of the suburbs. I've found that most people who have lived in Europe understand the need to commute, but those who haven't left Ireland, make serious groans at the idea of travelling an hour to work. So, yeah, I do think there's a lot of people who are dismissive of the rental/housing problems and feel that people are bringing it upon themselves.

    Ahh Frankfurt.. I lived in Ludwigshafen for a year as a teenager. haha. Ugh. Taught me that areas outside of the cities in Europe should be avoided.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,985 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    Good points above re: emigration to an EU state. Much easier and much much less red tape and much less costs coming and going.

    I would say if you are humming and hawing about emigration ... Just go to the EU and try it out. You are spoiled for choice. Do it or you will regret it later. Staying in Ireland is ok, but the late late show misery and alcohol abuse will be here when you get back. Oh, and the never ending housing and health care problems.

    (Edit) and you'll never know how good/bad things are here until you look from the outside.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762



    Because mostly of the "the grass is always greener", but also because I have a good (public service) job here. I'm certainly very appreciative of it because it'll provide for me, more or less guaranteed, until I retire and I won't have to worry about money. The fact that its permanent, whole time and pensionable means I have always talked myself out of moving abroad because its too big of a risk and I've been told I have it "too good" here to move abroad.

    I also can't leave for a year and come back to get a job again - jobs in my field are extraordinarily scarce and pigeonholed, but also if I am out of work in my job for more than six months I got on the far worse pension scheme. I'd be insane, logically, if I gave up a guaranteed job like that with a very good pension.

    People have it far worse than me, I'm well aware of that, but there are circumstances which always end up pushing me in the direction of "stay here". I do bitterly wish I'd at least tried moving abroad when I was younger - I was very close along the parents 20 years ago, but the sheer cost of their health insurance in Germany as (then) 55 year olds over there meant it was cancelled at the last minute. Instead of going myself and taking the plunge I was convinced to stay in Ireland, get a grant, and study more which I did. But that decision was the genesis really of me getting trapped in Ireland.



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