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A Federal EU superstate

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,899 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    No

    Article does not mention a "federal Europe" though?



  • Registered Users Posts: 287 ✭✭Freight bandit


    "Germany has set itself ambitious goals to launch a reform process of the EU.

    The new government’s coalition agreement specified that they want to use the ongoing Conference on the Future of Europe as a starting point for EU reform that should ultimately lead to the “development of a federal European state"

    It's been mentioned elsewhere that the new German government is putting EU federalisation on the top its agenda.

    Also Macron banging on about a new EU sovereignty

    Post edited by Freight bandit on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Packrat


    No.

    “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,123 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    The ultimate aim of the EU is to make Europe like the United States.


    They have never hidden that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭Glock17


    A federal EU superstate is clearly the aim of the EU.... you'd have to be blind not to see that.....



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,348 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    There's been scaremongering about this for fifty, sixty years. Nowhere in the article is a Federal EU mentioned.

    This is more scaremongering.



  • Registered Users Posts: 287 ✭✭Freight bandit


    They did in Lisbon treaty when they removed language referring to flags,anthems,symbols to hide its political ambitions and avoid calls for referendums on it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭Glock17


    The EU has it's own flag and national anthem. It also has a parliament in Brussels where elected representatives set out new laws. It also has it's own currency.

    At the moment it is effectively a federal superstate...

    You Irish have basically given your country away for 30 bits of EU silver.....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,899 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Too many in Ireland don't see where it is all going yet but they will be woken up sooner or later.

    It's all done by stealth in a way most won't understand. The treaties normal people have never read and left to their elected representatives to guide them.

    Take the EU army, sure we already are part of rapid action groups, the precursor to that very thing.

    How many people in Ireland or any other country actually knew that if you asked them?

    It's all sleight of hand because those pushing it know it has to be.

    It won't last, of course.

    Fooling around with sovereignty in Europe has never ever ended well.

    That is what is happening. Our sovereignty, our right to make our own choices is being siphoned from us bit by bit, year by year, treaty by treaty.

    The EU can still be saved but ever closer union has to end.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Don't see the issue tbh. All baby steps that take us away from insular nationalism towards a united globe in a number of centuries are to be welcomed.

    The value of EU membership has never been clearer than in the last decade. We'd be an economic mess, frozen out of international markets, at the mercy of the economic whims of the lunatic asylum across the Irish Sea.


    I have absolutely no problem with an EU federation that derogates supranational concerns like defence and external trade to elected federal bodies.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,123 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Apart from it being a clear aim and with the introduction of the Euro probably inevitable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,806 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Since Ireland joined in 1973 the EU has gone a very, very long way towards becoming a federal state.

    People in Ireland hate Brexit and the idea people voting for Brexit aren't all stupid, but the moves towards federalism was one of the major reasons people voted to leave. It was just something many of them considered and didn't want, as they wanted to be closer to decision making. The fact Britain couldn't control levels of immigration from EU states was a huge issue in the debate.

    I don't really like the moves towards federalism, but I don't think we'll have any real say. And it's inconceiveable we'll leave at any point in the next 30 years.


    Undoubtedly the EU has been good for Ireland, but I doubt any closer integration will bring us any benefits.



  • Registered Users Posts: 287 ✭✭Freight bandit


    I wonder if the people of any of the member states are going to get a say on this very big decision, given the EUs history with referendums I doubt it.The hope seems to be that after further integration it will be past the point of no return so tee hee hee....



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    The founding document of the EU, the Treaty of Rome, contains the objective of "creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe". It's not like this is a state secret. The EU has been quite clear about what it aspires to be since day one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    The Fourth Reich, achieved by paperwork rather than by Panzer.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    The Daily Mail called. It wants its headline back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,719 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    Do you not see the contradiction here though? Britain didn't like where the EU was heading so they left. That option is always there for any member state, and the EU will always need to balance that fact with any moves it makes.

    In the US, individual States cannot just leave when they want.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,078 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    I think Texas still has an opt out clause but yeah I see your point. We are not being coerced into anything, the door is always open.



  • Registered Users Posts: 287 ✭✭Freight bandit


    Except it hasn't, it's federalisation by stealth, if people knew years ago that joining the EEC would lead to federation I don't think many would have joined, even now a lot of people either don't know or deny its federal ambitions.Im also convinced if it was put to referendums it would be rejected in every member state.Theres also the matter of the Lisbon treaty after the French and Dutch rejected an EU constitution and it was repackaged ,designed to be unreadable,language removed to hide its political ambitions and avoid referendums on it,not very transparent.Under the EUs own rules the constitution should have been dead in the water...what we got was one commissioner accusing the French and Dutch of blackmail....



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    You do realise the treaties are public documents? And that as voters, the people of Europe are not divorced from the process? If we don't like how the EU is moving, we can vote in different representatives. Or indeed leave entirely.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Absolutely not.

    We should remain a Europe of independent, sovereign states managing our own borders, and not create a centralised Government of Europe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,972 ✭✭✭fly_agaric



    I see 2 people thanked the stale German=Nazi slur so I suppose it must be an old one but a good one!

    Anyway those most likely to bring such troubles back to Western Europe are the anti-EU nationalists in the different member states either trying to hobble the EU or break it up. They won and got Brexit done in the UK and it has been a wonderful boon for good relations and mutual understanding between France and UK and Ireland and UK. If there are more "exits" it'll be more of the same bad humour with more players (or more likely just pawns being played by external powers like US/China/Russia/Giant MNCs/India or who knows who else from Asia or Africa in future etc).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    There will be no further reform of the EU institutions for the foreseeable. There are too many external threats at the moment and the process of treaty change is too fraught. There isn't the time for extended period of navel gazing.

    As for the long term direction of Europe, well that's for the peoples to decide.



  • Registered Users Posts: 693 ✭✭✭cheezums


    As much as people want to retain sovereignty, we have to face the geopolitical reality which is the US is in a rapid economic, environmental and social decline and will or has already ceased to be a global superpower and thus we are moving into a world with China as the sole superpower and Russia as a lesser power.

    A federal EU state with a EU army would restore the balance of power so our ancestors wont be speaking chinese in 100 years time.

    You have to look at the bigger picture.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    China is only interested in Taiwan, not a Fourth Reich-style global domination.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭seenitall


    Lol, here’s the bigger picture: our descendants will be speaking Chinese any way you cut it, my teenage daughter is already ahead of the curve and is taking lessons in mandarin!! :D



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Russia hasn't been a superpower since rocky 4 ,

    There was always a belief that we would part of a unified and united Europe,as pointed out already most countries use European laws, we have a European parliament , currency ,and global trade deals ,next they will push for a standing EU army running along side or separate to nato , our defense forces are already part of the eu Nordic battlegroup ,it actually makes sense with the Putin carry on and the threats of putin using energy and gas supplies to various states to threaten or blackmail other states to allow him free range to bully other countries in the Baltics



  • Registered Users Posts: 693 ✭✭✭cheezums


    Not global domination no, but setting the global agenda on all fronts, from non negotiable positions. A world in which an authoritarian human rights intolerant China is the sole superpower is not where we want to go.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    I'm already confident my ancestors weren't eating beef chow mein.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No.

    They're going to struggle to keep it together over the next 20-30 years anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭onedmc


    Seamus your smack on, there could be multiple interpretations of what a federation is. It could be a loose federation or a tighter federation. Its really about the creation of institutions that have sovereign powers. So we have already ceded powers to Human rights to EU and what's the problem. We may add more in order to safeguard our own state.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Why would China be the sole superpower and better yet, why would other nations be unable to ignore them if they wished?

    China will attempt to set the global agenda the same way that the US, Russia, etc have all done over the last 50 years. The US being the ultimate form of superpower didn't change all that much, and they were well limited in how they could directly influence the world. China with a worse military and worse economy is unlikely to beat that run.

    I'd actually say they'll be struggling over the next decade.. They really fouled most of their opportunities of the last two decades rather badly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,899 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    The Euro is the ticking bomb.

    Back in 2010 it was shown beyond doubt in Europe how dangerous it is not having control of your monetary policy. Some found that out more than others.

    For the peripheral countries the currency is a prison, it's that simple. The ONLY way those countries including Ireland can devalue and increase competitive position when there is big disturbance in the global economy is maximum pain on the population.

    Germany likes it because the piglet countries keep the currency artificially weak for their exports and they control the currency. German monetary policy is forced on countries that are not capable of handling that, are not equipped and have very different economies.

    The next economic crisis will surely see multiple countries forced out. Just a question of when.

    It should have been Greece and Italy last time, you'd expect them to be the first out.

    Spain, Portugal, Greece and Italy have no business being in this currency with their counterparts on any metric.

    It's a political choice and it will end in disaster for them, and we'll suffer the contagion every time they get in trouble.



  • Registered Users Posts: 287 ✭✭Freight bandit



    I'm more concerned of the damage they'll do in that time before realising this...some of their policies are bonkers..not that we get much of a say in them anyways



  • Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭Glock17


    How long did ireland struggle to get free from London? 500 years? You gain independence, then after 50 years independence you hand your sovereignty over to Brussels?



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  • Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    China are probably more interested in a British or American style imperialism, control of trade and access to raw materials. they don't seem to be interested in occupying and colonising territory outside the mandate of heaven, but have no problem buying up foreign assets and using (private) military muscle to back it up,, kinda like British East (edit) Indian Company



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I'd be a fan. Sick of shambles Irish governments and our inability to do anything right. Will never happen but I'd rather Germans or Belgians running the country than the dopes who can't manage all the money we have properly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    You have to give the Germans credit, they never give up. Even with their 0% success rate.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Dunno why you chose to write all of that in response to my post.. might have been better directed at someone who had earlier lauded the EU.

    Although, I'd point out that it's not as simple as you want to make out. The EU has been very good to each of it's member states at different periods over the last few decades, and that's shifted either because of the Global economy (and that particular nations economic focus), or issues that they've managed to create for themselves. The EU has made mistakes, and has managed to become just as bloated as the Irish civil service, more interested in building bureaucracy, than reinforcing efficient practices for all to benefit from.

    Spain, Portugal, Greece, and Italy were always the poor economies in Europe... Ireland was too for quite a bit of time, and we might find ourselves heading that direction again at some stage. Our economic stability isn't as solid as many want to believe... but yes, we will end up paying for their shattered economies, but then so too will the other European nations. As for countries being forced out, I doubt it. The whole push by the EU is unity and solidarity, not exclusivity based along economic success. Countries may choose to leave though.

    The EU is a net plus for Ireland. There are problems, but I'm fairly confident that they will be relatively well resolved over the next few decades. I don't hold much higher expectation for European politicians and bureaucrats, than I have about Irish ones, but I suspect they're marginally better considering it's the more successful nations in Europe that tend to steer policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 693 ✭✭✭cheezums


    America is collapsing. They have a non functioning government, all sorts of economic and social problems, an opiod epidemic and they are already getting hammered by climate change, much faster than anyone else. In the next 20 years large parts of america will be unfarmable and uninhabitable. Water and food shortages, and then the mass unrest will happen.

    China's ultra authoritarian regime is abhorrent, but it will help them to stabilise various disasters coming their way. They are already the number 1 economic force in the world, will soon have the biggest military and are already more influential on the global stage than the US.

    It's a foregone conclusion that we're moving into a single superpower world with China at the helm. We had the same situation with the US since the end of WW2, but for all their faults and international meddling, at least their influence was coming from a position of a democratic state with reasonable values (or at least a strong illusion of a democracy).

    This next phase is uncharted territory and we should be scared. A strong EU is essential imo.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,465 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    If the last 2 years has shown me anything, it's that most Irish people want every part of their lives to be micromanaged by those who assume authority.

    Irish people don't want independence & they wouldn't know what to do with it if they got it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    No. Never.

    The Irish People own Ireland - the so-called "EU" does not and never can.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    The so-called "EU" has been terrible for Ireland and all countries.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Shared sovereignty. It’s been largely good for Ireland.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It’s not the so called EU, it’s literally the EU.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The US is in decline but unless it ends like the Soviet Union it will still be a superpower.

    China is on the other side of the world, unlike the Warsaw Pact which was embedded deep into Central Europe. It’s also not exporting an ideology unlike the Soviet Union, and despite US ideology isn’t a major military threat outside Asia.

    A European/Russian/Chinese alliance would be powerful. US control of our media and minds would have to cease, which is not likely for a generation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,078 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    The us continues to be the economic superpower but vastly....overwhelmingly the military superpower.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Have a read of the the EU treaties and know that establishing a close union is the objective. And on top of this note that in the last EU elections as in the previous one, the majority of voters voted for parties that support that objective. So why in heavens name would you expect a German government to do anything other than advocate policies that support this objective?

    There are clearly areas where we could benefit from a more coordinated approach such as purchasing of medical supplies, military spending, security and so on. Plus a more effective way of dealing with members such as Poland and Hungry who breach the treaty provisions and still expect to continue to enjoy the benefits of membership. It should not be surprising that these issues are on the table for discussion.

    But it’s a very long way from a federal state and the Germans would have to be dragged kicking and screaming into it if it were to happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,899 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    America is collapsing?

    Remind us of US unemployment and growth rates please, the size of it's economy and military.

    US GDP is $20trn, China is $12trn. GDP /person is $60,000 in the US. In China it's $9,000.

    Fact is the US is by far the world's biggest, richest and most important economy for all sorts of reasons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,614 ✭✭✭20silkcut


    We have a standing army of what is it? 9,000 poorly paid members underfunded with minimal equipment and technology. That has been our democratic will since independence. We are taxed to the hilt as it is and can barely pay for our health service so there is zero appetite in this country to pay to protect our sovereignty. Any half arsed mid size world power could invade and occupy this country in a matter of hours if they so desired.

    Diplomatic astuteness and political manoeuvring is our defence forces. We will always have to be part of something bigger than just ourselves.



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