A Federal EU superstate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118459045#Comment_118459045

America is collapsing. They have a non functioning government, all sorts of economic and social problems, an opiod epidemic and they are already getting hammered by climate change, much faster than anyone else. In the next 20 years large parts of america will be unfarmable and uninhabitable. Water and food shortages, and then the mass unrest will happen.

America is struggling, not collapsing. There's a difference. Their government has always been corrupt and led by the wealthy, and while we might see some kind of civil war within the few decades, they're more than capable of continuing to function as a superpower (both in military and economically) while that happens. America is just at the front in experiencing all the problems that first world nations will have to waddle through, although compounded by their love of double standards, which do nothing except further divide them as a people.

China's ultra authoritarian regime is abhorrent, but it will help them to stabilise various disasters coming their way. They are already the number 1 economic force in the world, will soon have the biggest military and are already more influential on the global stage than the US.

Chinese cultural norms, and the conditioning received from that culture rather than the regime will stabilize them through all manner of disasters. The regime is more likely to be the cause of most of those disasters and will have to change over time to compensate or risk an uprising of some kind. They're No.1 economically on paper... but without the solid foundation that the US has gained over centuries of development. Their economy is very fragile. Their military is large, but is still a 3rd world military for the most part, and have serious problems with the quality of personnel for their forces.

It's a foregone conclusion that we're moving into a single superpower world with China at the helm. We had the same situation with the US since the end of WW2, but for all their faults and international meddling, at least their influence was coming from a position of a democratic state with reasonable values (or at least a strong illusion of a democracy).

Hardly. Even should America lose it's superpower capability (which I don't believe would happen), India is damn close to being a superpower all by themselves. They already have a military that surpasses Russia.

As for the US being a positive influence, I don't see much difference between them and China... in terms of superpower diplomacy, and enforcing their desires on the rest of the world. We're biased about the US because we supposedly share western values, but the truth is that the US has propped up dictators and brutal regimes when it has suited their agendas, regardless of the pain it's caused other peoples. The sad truth is that western values are generally quite superficial when it comes to international concerns. China can be just as superficial in that regard. The difference is that we don't try to cover up for them, the same way we cover up for the US.

This next phase is uncharted territory and we should be scared. A strong EU is essential imo.

I agree that we need a strong EU, or even just an EU. The US has always looked to their own interests when it involved Europe, and that's not going to change. The same for China, or any other nation or organisation that emerges. Europe needs to have some kind of union to compete effectively against others.

As for being uncharted and scared, nah. It's always uncharted.. and we should always be wary of the future, but I don't see much to be scared of. War is likely over the next few decades, and rather than being scared, I'd rather that we were prepared for it. Just as i see economic slowdowns or crashes happening more often over the next while because our economic systems haven't learned anything from previous fups... but when we do learn/adapt, then everything will be rosy again. Somewhat.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118459405#Comment_118459405

Yeah, with the massive spate of invasions by mid sized world powers, especially in this region, we'd be mental not to sign away our sovereignty.

Also, barely pay for our health service? We spend a phenomenal amount on our health service, a lot more than the vast majority of countries per capita.

Freight bandit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118459252#Comment_118459252

I've read them, the vast majority haven't and I don't blame them, it's typical EU jargon.its not like EU politicians or even national politicians were openly telling people of its federalist ambitions,most people thought the eu concerned itself with regulating shower heads and the likes. Juncker summed up the EUs attitude...

"We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."

"Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact"

Of course we get the EU style democracy to, keep voting until you give the EU approved answer or just outright ignore the result..like the French and Dutch referendums, Juncker summed up the EUs attitude on this too....that they weren't voting against more EU.

Poland and Hungary have been demonised the last few years for not toeing the line on migration etc. And I don't blame them given the disaster its turned into.Poland and and Hungary have also been down this road before with centralised power structures.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118460447#Comment_118460447

Also, barely pay for our health service? We spend a phenomenal amount on our health service, a lot more than the vast majority of countries per capita

True, but what have we got for all that investment? A service that is sub-par across many areas, with many people being forced by circumstance to go private.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454856#Comment_118454856

Agreed with regards to petty insular nationalism, an ideology that has spilled oceans of European blood over the centuries. The idea that it's somehow fit for purpose in the twenty-first century where problems are global, not local is patently absurd.

This looks like yet another Eurosceptic nothing burger. The Treaty of Rome explicitly stated that the goal was "ever closer union" and yet this is presented to us as some sort of gotcha moment. If I were English, I'd have been livid at the loss of so many rights at the hands of petty grifters, cranks and morons. Fortunately, I'm Irish and smart enough to see that if anyone wants to take either my rights or anyone else's, they're peddling nonsense and need to be opposed.

Podge_irl

I've read them, the vast majority haven't and I don't blame them, it's typical EU jargon

They are not "jargon", they are legal treaties. Given the complexity of them they achieve surprising clarity. Should anyone feel the need to start perusing national laws they are not going to find anything much simpler.

Freight bandit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118460886#Comment_118460886

Like the Tome that is the Lisbon treaty? A treaty deliberately designed to be unreadable to avoid referendums on it, how many people do you think go home after a days work and sit down to read eu treaties...not a lot I'd imagine, they don't see the eu as their governing body, they elect national politicians for that...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/taoiseach-criticised-for-not-reading-treaty-from-cover-to-cover-1.924042?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Ftaoiseach-criticised-for-not-reading-treaty-from-cover-to-cover-1.924042

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/mccreevy-hasn-t-read-lisbon-treaty-1.823192?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fmccreevy-hasn-t-read-lisbon-treaty-1.823192

seamus

How many go home after a day's work and sit down and read new Irish legislation? Practically none. Does that mean they don't see the Dail as their governing body? Of course not, it's a nonsensical leap to make.

The fact that people aren't being forced to sit down and read through the documents doesn't undermine the legitimacy of them. The point is that the work is not being carried out in secret. It is open, public, available to anyone and everyone who wants to read it and agree or disagree with it.

The fact remains that despite all the whinging about impenetrable red tape and hidden agendas, neither actually exist in the EU. As political bodies go, the "EU" as an organisation is small and lean, and all its works are carried out completely in public and made as accessible as humanly possible, even translated into relatively obscure languages to ensure maximum accessibility.

Big stink of West Brit off this thread with all the talk of "control over borders" and "EU jargon". Too many people who've been taking the soup from the British press.

Freight bandit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118460961#Comment_118460961

Uh huh...please do go on, those big stinky west brits...

https://euobserver.com/political/24481

20silkcut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118460447#Comment_118460447

A truly sovereign nation can defend itself somewhat against any threats and maybe even assert its sovereignty occasionally. Ireland is not within an asses roar of a position to do either. So talk of sovereignty in an Irish context is just cheap barstool talk. No one is this country is willing to spend more tax money on defence or God forbid expansionist ambitions. No one ever got elected in Ireland or felt the need to get elected on a platform of increased military spending or robust sovereignty expression. Our power is soft power. We need friends and alliances we could never successfully pull off anything like brexit. Maybe if a situation like WW2 arises again isolating ourselves from the continent might work. But all other times and throughout history we need continental alliances to some degree.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118460763#Comment_118460763

Yeah, its managed incredibly incompetently, but that has nothing to do with the OP crying the poor mouth.

America is the only superpower in the world and will remain so.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118461011#Comment_118461011

The dictionary seems to have left out the definition of sovereign to mean "able to defend oneself". Costa Rica, Greenland and Iceland amongst others aren't sovereign nations, as they have no milirary whatsoever. Some serious waffle.

20silkcut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118461042#Comment_118461042

Yes they are great examples for your argument. Brilliant we can be like Costa Rica , Greenland and Iceland. I’m sure you can Google a few more countries to add to that.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118461081#Comment_118461081

We don't need to be like them, but they are sovereign countries. Blowing your waffle out of the water, without a navy too.

20silkcut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118461124#Comment_118461124

Greenland is part of the Danish realm. No need for further discussion on this drifting too far from the OP post.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118455512#Comment_118455512

No, it doesn't, but it's a common myth, even in Texas. When it joined, Congress uniquely created a subdivision clause that allows Texas to become up to five smaller states. Quite why, I'm not sure, but given the "Texan National Identity", as it were, it seems unlikely it will ever happen. Even to balance out DC's senators if that ever happens.

"China is only interested in Taiwan, not a Fourth Reich-style global domination."

Well, Taiwan and a lot of the South China Sea.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458030#Comment_118458030

Given your earlier usage of the phrase "you Irish", is it safe to assume that you are not Irish yourself?

Do you live in Ireland or are you posting from across the water? How is the oul' Brexit going for you all over there? We just celebrated our centenary of independence here not too long ago. Just to think, 100 years ago we were a tiny impoverished country on the edge of Europe. Now we are one of the wealthiest nations in the world, and sit at the tables as equals with all our European counterparts.

In contrast, 100 years ago, the British Empire was still a thing. The Brits wielded huge power and influence around the globe. Whereas now, it is now governed by politicians of the calibre of Boris Johnson and no longer has any real substantial influence anywhere. It removed itself from the bit of remaining influence it had through the EU. It got a fairly rude wake up call there last year when its previous bosom buddy (the US) made it clear that it would support little old Ireland over the UK in relation to the Northern Ireland protocol.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118461042#Comment_118461042

He's incorrect in his use, but if you change 'truly sovereign' to 'truly self-sufficient' or 'truly independent' the point is fair. Even if you change it to 'enforce its own sovereignty' the point is fair.

It really comes down to an acceptance of Ireland actually being non-aligned (or more accurately, aligned as it feels on the day) as opposed to the common (and unfounded in law) position of being neutral. Iceland may not have a military, but it accepts that the cost of having a military alliance enforce its sovereignty for it. Greenland's just not a sovereign nation in either case, it's an overseas territory of the Kingdom of Denmark. Costa Rica requires external nations act any time Nicaragua takes over a river island, which is fine because so far, at least, they've always acted.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118460912#Comment_118460912

I wouldn't expect the Taoiseach to have read it, seems like a waste of time. He has whole teams of lawyers to do that, I fail to see what him personally reading it adds. Nor do I see how making it "unreadable" avoids constitutions, the logic doesn't remotely make sense.

It is a highly legalese text, all the moreso because it wasn't a constitution and had to fit into the existing framework.

Freight bandit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463242#Comment_118463242

It was made unreadable to avoid calls for referendums on it, here straight from the horses mouth..D'Estaing the architect of the rejected constitution....

https://euobserver.com/institutional/25052

the Lisbon treaty was the constitution repackaged,they removed all language referring to flags,anthems,symbols to hide its political ambitions...only to reintroduce them a short time later when it was ratified...

Puts to bed the myth that the eu is democratic and transparent.seems it only advances when its being undemocratic and technocratic.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463382#Comment_118463382

Frankly this just betrays a lack of understanding of both what the EU is and how it works.

The EU is a supranational body, its constituent parts are the sovereign nations thereof. The Lisbon Treaty was approved by the govts of those nations - whether or not it went to a referendum in those countries is solely in the agency of those countries.

Freight bandit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463435#Comment_118463435

The thing is,Lisbon would have been rejected in most countries,something they well knew even Sarkozy said it would have been rejected in France if they got to vote on it, the same Sarkozy who said "the Irish must vote again!" When we rejected it.

The purpose of making it unreadable was so that national politicians could sell it to their people better, nothing to see here just another treaty full of EU jargon let's just ratify it....except in Ireland and we all know how that played out...

Freight bandit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463435#Comment_118463435

"Sarkozy said that the institutional changes involved in the Lisbon treaty, which would streamline the way the EU is run, were a matter for parliaments and not for referendums. "That's a political choice. It's perfectly democratic," he said. "But now we have the problem of the no vote in Ireland."

Just LOL, I can see how this slimeball ended up in so much bother

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463465#Comment_118463465

The people weren't going to read it one way or another. Whether or not it went to a referendum is a completely domestic decision.

Freight bandit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463516#Comment_118463516

Would you sign a contract you hadn't read or couldn't understand?

It's just aswell,it would have taken them at least 12 hours, clever move by the EU...

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463541#Comment_118463541

Again, your issue should be with the national governments.

All national governments will have had rather giant teams of experts and specialists pore over every last page of the treaty. I really couldn't care less that the Taoiseach didn't read it cover to cover.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463382#Comment_118463382

The ancient 2007 article doesn't say that it was made "unreadable" and nothing was "hidden" if anyone bothers to look. Why lie? What it says is that in Valery Giscard d'Estaing's opinion, the changes were not packaged as a "Constitution" as originally planned & put in an EU treaty instead to avoid referenda. Presumably if something like that is called out specifically as a "Constitution" whatever it contains, the countries that have a written Constitution would have to insert it into their own ones or have it along side even if content is not affecting it. Most of them don't take the view that I think the judges/courts take here that every new EU treaty means a change is made to the countries' constitution and another referendum must be held.

I have to say so what in the end? Trying to make a grandiose statement about the EU having a "Constitution" back then (when we are today post-Lisbon still quite a long way off an EU federal state) really just riled up nationalists that are easily manipulated. Hence it getting voted against in Netherlands/France. So was as well to stop that talk. edit: Their kids will think differently anyway and I expect euroscepticism is lower + feeling generally "European" is higher among that Gen-z cohort across Europe who are reaching/just passed voting age threshold.

Referenda, if not run carefully, are not very democratic IMO and often just an excuse for angry people to kick a disliked government and vote down whatever they put in front of the electorate. An example from this country where we generally (in fairness) do try and run them carefully: why were people dumb enough to vote "No" to keep a fossilised & undemocratic Senate? They did it out of orneriness (give the govt. or Enda Kenny a black eye), or they were bamboozled by the huge effort (made by the Senators, naturally) to retain it.

Freight bandit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118464372#Comment_118464372

"It's unpenetrable to the public" - D'Estaing

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/val-eacute-ry-giscard-d-estaing-the-eu-treaty-is-the-same-as-the-constitution-398286.html%3famp

"Karel de Gucht, the federalist Belgian Foreign Minister, confirmed this when he said, "“The aim of the Constitutional Treaty was to be more readable; the aim of this treaty is to be unreadable… The Constitution aimed to be clear, whereas this treaty had to be unclear."

And no we're aren't a long way off a federal EU state, most of the mechanisms have been put in place , though I do see trouble when they go for the whole enchilada..

Ah yeah nothing pesky than referendums and people deciding on their future, especially a big decision like this...

Freight bandit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118464372#Comment_118464372

"For the Treaty of Lisbon the process has been very different. It was the legal experts for the European Council who were charged with drafting the new text. They have not made any new suggestions. They have taken the original draft constitution, blown it apart into separate elements, and have then attached them, one by one, to existing treaties. The Treaty of Lisbon is thus a catalogue of amendments. It is unpenetrable for the public.

In terms of content, the proposed institutional reforms – the only ones which mattered to the drafting Convention – are all to be found in the Treaty of Lisbon. They have merely been ordered differently and split up between previous treaties. There are, however, some differences. Firstly, the noun "constitution" and the adjective "constitutional" have been banished from the text, as though they describe something inadmissible. At the same time, all mention of the symbols of the EU have been suppressed, including the flag (which already flies everywhere), and the European anthem (Beethoven's Ode to Joy). However ridiculous they seem, these decisions are significant. They are intended to chase away any suggestion that Europe may one day have a formal political status. They sound a significant retreat from European political ambition" - D'Estaing

And oh lookey..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7661397.stm

"The EU symbols were enshrined in the ill-fated EU constitution, which was rejected by French and Dutch voters in 2005. EU leaders decided to leave out any reference to EU symbols when they negotiated the Lisbon Treaty in 2007."

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118464584#Comment_118464584

That's a better article thanks. At least it supports what you were saying about "unreadability".

However the point is made in it that the EU flag and anthem already existed and were in use pre the aborted Constitution or the Lisbon treaty. Valery Giscard d'Estaing says (per your links) the references to a "Constitution" and such state-like trappings were removed completely in the Treaty, i.e. not just hidden or made more difficult to see by legalese. Article also says all the language + trappings were removed specifically to avoid those referendums.

Again so what? Is it less open/transparent/clear (vs writing a single simplified "Constitution" document + people voting for it), must agree with article yes, but I wonder what kind of situation the EU would be in now to face the many and various external problems and threats stacking up against member states if both the Constitution idea and the "less ambitious" (per d'Estaing) Lisbon Treaty changes to the workings had both been killed off thanks to the fear of nationalists like yourself. Brexit would have been much nastier and more destructive without any defined Article 50 process for leaving the EU for a start. Do you think people around Europe would really be much happier + better off with an even weaker and less effective EU without some of the limited state-like tools (edit: and some streamlining of voting/decision procedures given increases in number of member states) it got out of Lisbon Treaty?

Despite the sneers about "pesky referendums" they are not all they are cracked up to be as regards some holy expression of democracy & the "will of the people" IMO. Seems to be heresy to say that in Ireland with citizens attachment to them and Irish govt.'s love of making a big fuss and running loads of them + turning over their homework to joe soaps to do instead. Maggie Thatcher I think described referendums as a "a device of dictators and demagogues", one of the few sensible things she said. They are dangerous and powerful and can be misused easily (but I suppose that applies to alot of things).

edit: Finally again I don't agree we are very close to the "Federal superstate" you envisage but yes at the moment each treaty will tighten the union/expand powers and so is a step on a road that might end up there. I don't have a problem with more powers going up to the EU where it is required to get a job done, and I have a feeling unfortunately the coming years are going to show people it is needed.

We are already seeing that with some events during the pandemic. I think there will be more of the same in future crises because even the largest and most powerful EU states have become too weak relatively in global terms, and really just not capable of dealing with them adequately on their own any more. Hang together or hang separately.

Freight bandit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118466080#Comment_118466080

D'Estaing also famously said:

"“Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly... All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be disguised in some way.”

"Making cosmetic changes would make the text more easy to swallow.”.

https://euobserver.com/institutional/24498

Those of us who were intimately involved with both referendums knew the stitch up that was underway, its not just undemocratic it's administrative abuse.

Again as regards referendums, God forbid that people have the rightful capacity to intervene in how they are governed, I find your attitude on this strange to be honest, then again some folk on here don't take too well to the sacred cow of the EU being criticised, with all the usual cries of "nationalists" "populists" "west brits".Its a bit like the EU itself "come along now children...onwards to federalisation " don't concern yourself with anything we're up to behind your back...

ancapailldorcha

That out of context quote changes nothing. The fact that Eurosceptics have abandoned reason in favour of myths shows how desperate they are.

Margaret Thatcher was completely correct about referenda. People elect politicians to decide. Referenda are fine for technical changes with known outcomes but they're vulnerable to exploitation by crooks as we see here in the UK.

Freight bandit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118467854#Comment_118467854

There's no denying what went down...funnily enough I'm nearly 100% you were the poster on here for years telling people that it was ludicrous when we said the eu was heading for a federal superstate....only a few posts back you said it was the aim from the beginning..

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118467893#Comment_118467893

Yes, there is. As a rule of thumb, always assume Eurosceptics act in bad faith. Has yet to let me down. They've been wailing about this for years and nothing's happened.

Freight bandit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118467909#Comment_118467909

Please point out your issue with it, are you saying the Lisbon treaty wasn't the rejected constitution repackaged? That it wasn't made to be unreadable? That it was deliberately done so as to avoid calls for referendums on it?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118467969#Comment_118467969

Calling it unreadable sounds like a weak attempt to disguise laziness. If you thought it was that important, you'd have read it. If you can prove this, go ahead.

Freight bandit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118468004#Comment_118468004

Even lawyers had trouble deciphering it...again the floor is yours here, so are you going to point out your issues or is it easier just to say all Eurosceptics act in bad faith...

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118468030#Comment_118468030

Did they? How many lawyers as a percentage of those qualified had issues?

I don't have any issues with the EU. I have issues with the stuff you're spouting here. I live in the UK so I have good reason to cast aspersions on the character of Eurosceptics.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118457876#Comment_118457876

If the Euro didn't collapse after the financial crisis in 2008, it is difficult to see what kind of economic crisis would cause its collapse. A political crisis might be a different thing, but a more federal Europe would address that.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118467893#Comment_118467893

"Ever closer Union" has been the aim since the beginning but a federal superstate is not going to happen. There are doubtless those who would favour it and even push for it, but 28 countries will never agree to it.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118467783#Comment_118467783

I'm calling a spade a spade describing you as a nationalist (don't know about the other 2), you can call me "EU lover" or a "Euro federalist" or my opinions on dangers of referendums for certain subjects "strange" or whatever if it makes you feel better I don't give a monkeys. Am not sure how far in direction of a federal state the EU should go. Suppose my feelings would be subsidiarity should be foremost as its supposed to be, and the powers or regulations or duties etc. should only end up being exercised at a super-national level if first local govt. and then national govt. of a member state can't do the job effectively. Something disturbs you about evolution of the EU and growth in its powers post Lisbon, if that isn't nationalism based in fear of change I don't know what else it is/can be.

If you are Irish can it really be about a devotion to "democracy" + the sanctity and necessity of referendums or a even a lack of openness/transparency by the EU? Calling the Lisbon Treaty "administrative abuse" (presume you want Ireland to withdraw from it if you really believe that so strongly given your multiple lengthy posts dredging it up from pushing 2 decades ago?) is too much.

The biggest problem with lack of democracy in this country IMO is not at super-national level, it is the constant flow of what used to be very local govt. powers and duties [and are in almost all democracies I would expect] up to the central govt. and its technocratic quangos and bodies. Local government is very weak now. It's a sort of talking shop that does little without Central direction + funding.

No one mentions this much on here vs other hot topics or seems to care (other than perhaps for the odd rural rant about the evils of the "Dublin" govt. decisions, when ironically Dublin itself suffers worse sometimes from same flow of local powers upward).

The oncoming EU "superstate" supposedly being gestated under a cloud and run to our detriment to boot by the Nazis kids and grandkids with their inherited war guilt is a sexier subject for the little right-nationalist outpost here, so alot more threads and posts get made on it. It is also likely to last much longer than the good old reliable Covid-19 pandemic restrictions as a motivator!