Religion and Engaging with the Teacher
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Mickey Harte uses his public profile to push his woman-hating conservative religious opinions onto people. The GAA is very far from an inclusive organisation.
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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When I wanted to send my son to a non-religious primary school I had to move to do it, because there were only 9 in the whole country, and only 7 in all of Dublin. Even so, he went to a denominational secondary school. I wouldn't have to move today, and he would be able to attend a non-religious secondary school. Why? Because Educate Together demanded the schools and DE approved them. 22 primary schools appear on the DE list of schools opening from 2019-2022. 11 are Educate Together schools, 4 are public-run multi-denominational schools managed by Education and Training Boards, and the other 7 are Irish-language schools. There are 15 secondary schools on the list. Eight are Educate Together schools, 6 are ETB schools, and one is a Catholic denominational school.
We have a real problem. But your contention that the cause of that problem is that civil servants are religious conservatives is inaccurate - though of course no-one on boards ever lost popularity by taking a swipe at public service workers. If you really think that, here's a challenge for you. See how many schools you can find that opened in the 21st century and that are run by any religious denomination. You'll find that there are feck all. In the same period, more than 80 ET primary schools have opened. Since 2011 alone, 23 ET secondary schools have opened (or will if you include those opening this September).
You won't find the new denominational schools. You probably won't even go looking. Instead you're more likely to deflect and adopt another set of "facts" to support your inaccurate contention. The trouble with that approach is that if we identify the wrong problem we've no hope of fixing it. And that's a pity, because there is a problem.
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I dunno. It was relatively easy for me to find a non-religious option, living in the liberal heartland as I do. But while the system is theoretically based on parental choice, the reality is that if you're not in the traditional mainstream and you don't live in an area of growing population you don't really have a choice. And because change is only happening with new schools, there's a massive inertia in the system. The reality is that the existing schools are not going anywhere. I was aware of one of these parental consultations in an area outside Dublin (can't say where). In an area with 5 primary schools, the research and consultation reckoned that about 35-40% of parents wanted a non-denominational school ethos (with the rest happy with the status quo). In theory, that would point to maybe 2 of the 5 schools moving to the State or ET sector. But the problem is that the 35-40% was spread across the whole district, and the vast majority of parents would be unwilling to disrupt their kids and the school communities by making the change - including those parents who wanted non-denominational schools.
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Non pushy, religion as a safety net indeed
Mickey Joe was pushy enough when it came to telling women how to manage their reproductive health.
This is the guy who requires all team members to join him at mass before the match?
Exactly the kind of proselytising catholic we don't need thanks.
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'can't be arsed to bring your kids to a school further away'? You really think we should be destroying the planet with more and more unnecessary car journeys just to preserve the catholic church's control of education? You've heard of cachement areas in school admission criteria, right?
This is the 'let them eat cake' approach to school provision. It would be like Mr Bumble in the workhouse deciding that there's no need to improve the diet of gruel and slops because sure look, the starving kids are CHOOSING to eat the gruel, so what's the problem?
Nothing that I've suggested is discriminatory and oppressive. As the old quote says; When You’re Accustomed to Privilege, Equality Feels Like Oppression.
Which bit of my little primer did you have difficulty understanding? Here you go, I'll repeat it again. Let me know which bit you're struggling with and I'll see if I can explain them better for you.
1) 90% of schools in Ireland are religious - the Patron of the school is the local Catholic bishop for the vast majority of these.
2) These schools are managed by principals who are paid by the State. The BOM is drawn largely from the local community (local reps, parent reps, teacher rep).
3) The BOM has no control over school ethos. That is set by the Patron.
I'm not sure if you really want to bring Ernest, the repetitive parthenophilic abuser, into discussions about catholic church patronage of schools; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Schr%C3%B6dinger#Parthenophilia
Post edited by AndrewJRenko on0 -
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Well Octopod, despite how special you think that you are, you actually don't get to decide for everyone else. Most people tend to learn that well before adulthood, although apparently it's not uncommon among boards posters for that idea to persist. It is a bit mad how some people remain so self-centred!
If there is a library in your town, you don't get to land in, bawling like a three-year old that it must be immediately converted to something else to suit your own temporary whim and feck everyone else.
The State owns very few schools. The vast majority are privately owned by different groups. Including many Educate Together schools which are privately owned by a limited company (did ya know that?). Property rights, like protections against discrimination and access to education I referred to above, are protected by the Constitution.
You can't really go up and protest outside Croke Park and expect to be successful in demands that it be immediately turned into an ice-hockey arena because you decided today that you like ice-hockey and you think your preference is more special that all of the people who are happy with the GAA.
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Ah here. Go on. Now you want to dictate your anti-Catholic discrimination to the masses based on climate change.
Here is a tip for you, there is also no law preventing you from moving to live next door to whatever school you want to attend. You may not have been aware that you can actually choose where you want to live? (Perhaps the estate agent was trying to sell a dud house and saw you coming and told you that it was the law that you had to buy that house you are in now?). You can even move to another house after for various reasons. Jobs/lifestyle/school etc. Although you'd likely have us believe that the local Parish Priest is camping outside your house with a rifle lest you attempt to leave.
Thanks again for reminding us all of the great strawman that the BOM doesn't set the ethos of the school. You obviously have no argument when you start stating obvious facts that were never in dispute or claimed otherwise, as an "argument". Next time, add point 4: "There are seven days in a week"
Do something positive if you want things to be changed. Or be lazy and don't. Be hypocritical if you like, moaning about church schools, all the while leeching off them. Then moan some more about it in order to convince yourself you had no choice. It's up to you.
And it is up to you if you want to highlight the alleged sexual abuse of young girls by a renowned atheist in your support for more non-religious schools.
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Libraries don't run religious events though, requiring their non-religious users to sit through them. Libraries don't impose their spiritual and moral values on their users and their staff. It's a bit different.
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It's very intolerant of you Andrew to impose your rules and definitions onto others. It's not for you to presume that something in a library is not repugnant to any particular religion. there may indeed be a religion that considers books to be sacred and certain other books to be evil and it is an offence on their religion for the existing library to be in its current configuration.
If someone wants to call themselves a "Jedi" or "Flying Spaghetti Monsterian" that is up to them. I'm all for freedom of choice and tolerance.
If you want to make your own special rules of what can and cannot be done against an organisation or person when religion is involved, then don't also assume you get to decide what a religion is! If you want an exception that constitutional rights can be denied to people or organisations based on them being considered to be associated with "religion" then fire ahead and see how far you get with that
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More 'Let them eat cake' stuff here. Families are now supposed to up sticks and move house because Donald and others want to continue using state funding to impose their religious values and practices on others. Not the most realistic of solutions there Donald. And the 'do something positive' is of course outside the bounds and powers of most families, who have a not unreasonable expectation that the State will provide suitable education for everybody, not just for those who follow a particular religion.
So is there any religious body in Ireland that actually objects to libraries holding books? We know your beloved catholic church had a long history of trying to impose their views on media, but does that include libraries today? Regardless, I was referring to particular impositions on staff and users, the well-established practices of the catholic church in relation to schools. Like I said, it's not quite the same thing.
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You need to learn some tolerance and then learn how to live and let live. You don't get to impose your beliefs or views onto anyone else. You are free to have your own beliefs (atheism?) and to follow them. That's fine with me. If you want to convert to Islam tomorrow then that is fine with me. Neither the State, nor anyone else, should try to forcibly convert you to Islam. Nor, after you are voluntarily converted, should it try to forcibly convert you to atheism.
If, after converting to Islam you want to set up community groups, then you should get the same State support as any other group and under the same conditions. That's a little concept called equality.
If you decide to set up a local school with an Islamic ethos, then that is perfectly fine and once it is certified by the Department of Education and meets the standard criteria, you should get the same funding as anyone else. If, after you have done a load of work setting up and building a fabulous school, the local scrounging anti-Muslim bigot can also enroll his child in the school. The school cannot refuse the child as that is a condition of the Department in supplying teachers. But that bigot doesn't have the right to burst in on day one and decide that his child is considering themselves a member of the Jedi religion and that the school must immediately be turned over to follow Jedi principles. If the bigot is against schools with an Islamic ethos, then he has the choice to send his child elsewhere. He can't force and choose his way into a scenario and then claim that that scenario is imposed upon him.
If you want to be a hypocrite and send your children to schools that are funded and supported by other members of a community while you sit up on their backs doing a "take take take" kind of thing, then that is on you. You can blame all your own life choices and decisions on the big bad world if you want. Helplessness is an imagined state.
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Hi Donald just a couple of points:
1. Atheism is NOT a belief (just like non-stamp collecting is not a hobby).
2. You seem to be fond of referring to our constitution.
Article 45 states
"the operation of free competition shall not be allowed so to develop as to result in the concentration of the ownership or control of essential commodities in a few individuals"
Could an argument not be made that an essential commodity (Education) is unproportionally concentrated towards Catholic Church ownership?
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The monopoly guff falls flat on its arse in the face of the fact that there are more non-Catholic secondary schools that Catholic ones. There are about 160 non-Catholic primary schools for you to choose from too. If they won't let you attend then you will have to take that up with them.
There are also no rules or restrictions preventing you from creating your own school. You can set it up and get it running as an independent school and retain ownership in a local board of trustees or you can hand it over to the private limited company - "Educate Together Ltd." - if you so wish. There are no rules preventing you from doing so. Now, if you send the Department an email saying "I hate Catholics and I was reading and writing some rants on boards.ie or facebook about it and I decided you have to build a new school right beside my house" then they might not give you much time. If you turn up with a plan, and a premises, and a governance structe with evidence of community support in place, then they will listen to you. You can't just whinge, and keep whinging, until someone else does the work for you.
If a person loves ice hockey and they are stuck in Ireland surrounded by GAA pitches, they don't have the right to force the GAA to build ice hockey facilities and hand them over to the the "Irish Ice Hockey Association" just because most people are interested in GAA. If you don't want your child to attend a Catholic school then send them to a different school (or home school is also an option). Principles seem to go out the window though very easily as soon as money or effort is involved.
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See how many schools you can find that opened in the 21st century and that are run by any religious denomination. You'll find that there are feck all.
I can think of 4 off the top of my head:
Le Chéile Ballincollig.
Le Cheile Tyrrellstown.
Edmond Rice Dublin 15.
Le Cheile National School Roxboro.
Trionoide Naoife Limerick.
They're all brands new buildings.
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Article 45 states
"the operation of free competition shall not be allowed so to develop as to result in the concentration of the ownership or control of essential commodities in a few individuals"
Could an argument not be made that an essential commodity (Primary school Education) is unproportionally concentrated towards Catholic Church ownership?
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Nope. Take it up to the other fella who insists that the Principal, who is paid by the State, runs his or her respective school.
The Church does not "own" education. It owns buildings. It sets up schools and those schools are allocated teachers based on the number of students that choose to attend its schools. If you google there you will find stories of schools being closed due to low student numbers. If parents choose to send their kids to a different school, then that school will cease to exist. The Department won't care if you get together with your buddies and purchase land and build your own school and all students transfer there. The funding follows the student. If there is a Protestant school with 500 students and a Catholic school next door with 5 students, the Department isn't in the business of forcing the Protestant school to close down. The only permission you need to build your own school building is planning permission. That is overseen by your local county council. Your Councillors, who are responsible for development plans, are elected by the public.
The number of primary Gaelscoileanna is less than the number of non-Catholic schools. So maybe we should sort that out first? I am sure that there is a Gaelscoil close enough to you that it would be a viable (not necessarily the most convenient) option for you to have your children attend if you wanted them to have an education through Irish. If someone landed down to your non-Gaelscoil tomorrow and insisted that in order to break the English Language monopoly, that it was changing to a Gaelscoil, regardless of parents/students wanted. Teachers who weren't competent enough in the language to teach would be transferred out and ones who were would be transferred in. Would you be in support? Or maybe even insist that it should be set up to teach through Polish? To break the English language monopoly and all that?
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Nope. Take it up to the other fella who insists that the Principal, who is paid by the State, runs his or her respective school.
I'm sorry I don't know what that means. Can you elaborate please (without the suggestion that I should build my own school!!)
The Church does not "own" education. It owns buildings.
OK I get that bit. Those buildings were paid for many years ago by our ancestors and in recent years have been upkept by the taxes of the entire population but point taken if you are addressing Article 45 reference to "ownership of commodities"
but what about the rest of Article 45 ...
"the operation of free competition shall not be allowed so to develop as to result in the concentration of the control of essential commodities in a few individuals"
Surely it's obvious that the control of primary education is concentrated disproportionately towards 1 business (the Catholic Church).
I'm just asking the question. (Hint: The answer is not "if you don't like it go and buy some land and build your own school")
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The first bit refers to your reference to the Church controlling the school. Another (anti-Catholic) poster stated that Churches don't run schools but the State runs them by paying the salary of a principal who runs them along with a BOM.
It is a bit funny that you ask "What about the rest of Article 45" when you selectively quote it yourself.
that, especially, the operation of free competition shall not be allowed so to develop as to result in the concentration of the ownership or control of essential commodities in a few individuals to the common detriment.
Regardless, education is not a "commodity" so Article 45 is irrelevant. But to humour you, schools are buildings. There are no restrictions on any particular sections of society owning or developing buildings (that don't apply to everyone - e.g. planning regulations).
(To the best of my knowledge there are 4 primary schools in my local parish. two small schools and one larger school that are owned by the parish. The 4th is a large Educate together school. The entity that owns the three "Catholic" schools is the parish and only owns those three schools. The entity that owns the ET school is Educate Together Limited and owns the guts of 100 schools. Which do you think should be broken up first in your monopoly busting? The one with three, or the one with about a hundred?)
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@[Deleted User] Yes ETs make up a large proportion of recently built schools. But they're still a very small proportion of schools as a whole, and if you don't live in an area with enough population growth to allow a new school to be built, you're screwed.
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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Do you have any reference for these laws that prevent a new school being built?
The Department may not indulge your own personal desires with a waste of public money but that does not equate to you being prevented from firing ahead and building it. Once you have it built and it is in place, you will get funding based on your capitation. On the same basis as any other school.
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Again, the pure Trumpian tactic of telling others to show tolerance to your ethos based firmly around intolerance of other views, other religions. If the vaguest hint of tolerance was baked into the operating model of catholic schools, most of this would be unnecessary, but it's not.
You seem to be about 30-40 years out of date on your description of how Dept Education works. It doesn't matter what money or land you bring to Dept Education. They assign new schools based on demographic needs, not based on who's run the best cake sale.
And more irrelevant analogies here. GAA pitches aren't built with public funds and staffed with coaches paid out of public funds. It's a bit different.
I wonder if we could pull together a list of all the things that DT expects parents to do, as punishments for their heinous thoughtcrime of not wanting their kids to be indoctrinated by someone else's religion when they're at school. Apparently they should;
- drive to the other side of the city or county to attend school
- move house to attend school
- keep their heads down, say their prayers, join in the the nativity to attend school
- start off a 20 year project to fundraise and buy land so that their five year old can attend school
All because DT can't bear the prospect of a publicly funded school having to treat all children equally, and be respectful to students of all religions and none.
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You're issue is that you want everything handed to you or done for you. You can build whatever school you want. You won't necessarily get departmental funding for it though. But then parishes don't necessarily get departmental funding.
And yes, GAA clubs get plenty of funding (which they deserve and are entitled to). My own one as a caretaker fully funded by a "FAS" scheme (or whatever the new equivalent is). I suppose that because of that, you want free Garth Brooks tickets?
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Most ETB schools have an explicit Catholic ethos, despite being fully owned by a State body. So your comment that "there are more non-Catholic secondary schools than Catholic ones" is yet another falsehood.
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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"Education is not a commodity" is arguable and depends on what definition you use. I would argue that, after water food and shelter, it is the most precious commodity but there's no point arguing over a definition.
On your other point that the 3 schools are owned by "the parish" ... what exactly do you mean?
Owned by an area??
People who live in the area?
Only Catholics who live in the area?
or The Catholic Church itself?
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Sorry to have to pull you up on that again but you are wrong, again. Check the stats if you like. unless you are doing something completely perverted like including any school that allows a Catholic student to attend as a "Catholic School"
Any update on that law that prevents new schools from being built? .................(Didn't think so but will give you another chance)
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Education itself is not controlled by the schools. That is controlled by the State which sets curricula and standards and trains and certifies teachers. And it is most certainly not a commodity.
Do you know who owns your local GAA pitch? (I'll give you a hint - it isn't Páirc an Chrócaigh Teoranta). Who owns any of the community facilities in your locality?
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The liars and deniers won't acknowledge the fact that it's NOT open to anyone to set up a school - well, not unless they're a multi-millionaire. Dept of Education approval and funding is essential for everyone else, and they are VERY reluctant to approve a non-religious school. They will literally exhaust every other possible option. Dept of Education is stuffed full of religious conservatives pursuiing their own agenda, ask anyone involved in the ET or other non-religious school movements.
"90% of schools in Ireland are religious" - it's actually worse than that, Renko. 90% are catholic, about half of the rest are Church of Ireland, ETs and minority religions make up the rest.
It actually IS up to anyone who wants to, to establish a school. The difficulty is in being recognised by the DES, which is the only way they would receive funding from the State, and that applies to any school, regardless of it’s ethos, religious or otherwise. There are religious and non-religious schools I’m aware of which do not receive funding from the State, they are entirely funded by their Church or by the parents or by donations from the public.
As for whether or not the DOE is stuffed with religious conservatives, there wouldn’t be much point in asking people who are biased, as they’re only going to confirm your suspicions. The current education system isn’t just failing parents on the basis of religious affiliation or none -
What exactly are the "advantages" of a catholic education? A free guilt trip? Why are we allowing a child raping church to control schools they don't even pay for?
There aren’t any advantages or disadvantages of one form of education over another. It’s why there is no real demand for change in the current education system. It isn’t just that the DES doesn’t have it in the budget to overhaul the education system, it’s the fact that they can’t. They don’t have that power, and the State doesn’t have ability either. The only way to make a real difference in the percentages you quoted would be for the State to establish more State-run schools, and when the political will isn’t there to address rural development and housing in any meaningful way in spite of the fact that the population is only increasing, providing for education is even less of a priority than the first two.
As for why we are allowing a child raping church to control schools they don’t even pay for - people send their children to schools to be educated. Nobody sends their children to school to be raped. One has literally nothing to do with the other. The reason the Church controls the schools under their patronage is because the State doesn’t have the funds to establish enough new schools to provide for the education of all the nation’s children. The State barely provides for education as it is, and that has nothing to do with anyone working in the DOE, and everything to do with the fact that the political will to bring about the change in the education system which would suit you, just doesn’t exist.
You could certainly make the argument, in the Oireachtas at least. It’s not a very compelling one, and it would have no effect in Irish law. I think you missed the preamble to Article 45:
DIRECTIVE PRINCIPLES OF SOCIAL POLICY
ARTICLE 45
The principles of social policy set forth in this Article are intended for the general guidance of the Oireachtas. The application of those principles in the making of laws shall be the care of the Oireachtas exclusively, and shall not be cognisable by any Court under any of the provisions of this Constitution.
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Sheesh, so a GAA caretaker on a CE scheme is now equivalent to providing salaries for teachers, principal, allowances for principal, deputy principals and posts of responsibility, salaries for secretary, SNAs and capitation fees. Yeah, they just so similar there Don.
Maybe we should try Don's approach to other public services areas - Not happy to be on a hospital waiting list for your child's operation? Well, why don't you just go and build your own hospital? It's the obvious solution really.
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You'll have to take a few deep breaths and make up your mind. Because you are all over the place. One minute, churches don't contribute anything to organisation of schools (this is somehow despite the fact they often supply the land/building) because that is done by principals who get paid by the State. Now, it has changed so that whatever Church is patron is getting paid instead of the principal.
I've tried to explain it to you as simple as possible a few times. Any organisation (religious or not) can put in effort to develop a school. If they satisfy the governance and other conditions, coupled with attracting sufficient students, then the government will supply the teachers to teach those kids.
Apparently, providing the premises and the organisational structure is nothing in your book, yet you appear to be incapable of doing it yourself...........
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And I've explained to you that your theory, ridiculous and all as it is, is about 30-40 years out of date. The Dept decide where new schools are needed, and those are the ones they fund.
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