Religion and Engaging with the Teacher

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118276485#Comment_118276485

I’ve already referred to the evidence. Just because you’re dismissing it (for no reason other than that you don’t like it) doesn’t mean it’s not there.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118267691#Comment_118267691

The old 'not beling religious is a religion' trope

Gotta love it

Nobody objects to schools 'teaching religion' ie, teaching about religions (well, thats not true, lots of catholics would love it if kids didn't know any other religions even existed)

Catholic schools don't 'teach religion' they participate in the catholic religion. They include catholic doctrine throughout the curriculum and devote large parts of the calendar to preparing children for religious ceremonies and rituals and to celebrate religious festivals

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118276541#Comment_118276541

“Nobody objects to schools ‘teaching religion’ ie, teaching about religions”

I think you’ll find that that’s not true of many atheists. There are probably even a few examples in this thread.

A great many atheists would be quite happy for religion to make no appearance on school curricula at all, other than passing references in history, and possibly grudging references in CSPE.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118276499#Comment_118276499

Is that the "evidence" that because 78% of householders tick the catholic box we should have over 90% of schools under the control of the catholic church? It's nonsense.

Teacher2020

In many cases the church owns the land that Catholic ethos schools are built on.

We got a new school 10 years ago and it needed a new site. The department only pay for the cost of the building - they don't pay for the land it is built on. The priest wrote a cheque and bought the site with parish funds. That land belongs to the parish. It's not just as simple as handing over patronage. The state would have to buy back the land. That is one of the reasons that it takes longer to set up and Educate Together School. They often don't have access to the same funding as the Catholic Church do and they have to come up with the money for the land.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118276850#Comment_118276850

It's easy to buy new souls with church funds.

Try paying reparations to the old souls abused by the church, and they're found wanting. Not to mention destroying and hiding records of forced adoptions.

Is this taught about during religion class?

Treppen

Hotblack Desiato

There are schools built in recent years on state owned land, all building costs paid by the state, which have been handed over to a church to run - now that's a scandal.

We have a new hospital project which could still end up the same way. You couldn't make it up.

Teacher2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118289888#Comment_118289888

I didn't say I agreed with it- I'm stating fact. The fact is that the church owns the land that many Catholic schools are built on and chances are they won't just hand it over to the state. I don't think it's fair to be insinuating that teachers who work in Catholic schools support everything the church has done in the past. Many of us are in a similar situation to parents- we don't have much choice in where we work either. Teachers who limit themselves to non faith schools often take longer to get a permanent contract and this has impact on mortgages etc.

happyoutscan

Just my tuppence.

Both reared (dragged) as Catholic but we did not have the kids baptized.

Had a chat with our kids teachers who were great for the most part. We were respectful and didn't go in all guns blazing. Kids are permitted to do other activities, help out the school secretary or take part if they want.

We have mellowed slightly as our kids enjoy learning about it and like the inclusiveness of it (if they wish to take part in the classroom). We discuss the various religions and why we are not religious. They understand why they were not/won't be allowed communions/confirmations etc and that is fine. When they are older (one is almost old enough) we can go into greater detail about the historical legacy of the church, but that can wait until they are mentally ready for those horrors.

When communions come around we go away for holidays and will be doing so in a couple months once again. Unlike once upon a time, we feel this approach works perfectly.

I just wish people would stop getting their kids baptized if they are not religious themselves. F*ck the grandparents, they'll get over it.

BettyBlue22

In almost any classroom I've worked in, between 5 and 30% of the students have been opted out of religion. Nobody bats an eyelid. These are RC schools but if they don't attend this one, they'll attend the other RC school around the corner or down the road because there's no logical choice, for proximity, community and logistical purposes, to go elsewhere the homogeneity of the Irish education system is changing at a sloth's pace, if not slower.

The other kids don't care. The children being opted out have had to stay in the classroom, so they hear what's happening, but if they try to join in they're gently redirected back to their work, in the same way I'd redirect a child back to their work if I was doing something with another group of children in any other subject.

The arguments that children don't come out of school as religious fanatics is nonsense. Children love prayer, they love the routine and rhythm and playfulness of the way children's prayers are configured now, and the sense that the sacraments are a big celebration (and opportunity to make money or get presents) reinforces that. 90 minutes per year is all that's prescribed for teaching other religions. It's pure indoctrination because the sense of ceremony can have a really powerful impact on some children and if parents don't want their children exposed to or participating in religious education, that's their prerogative and right. I certainly won't stand in their way.

I'm not religious, but I'm respectful of the fact that other people do believe in certain religions, and so I take religion seriously in class. That said, unless the school dictates prayer throughout the day etc. religion happens during religion time. If you want more than that, there's 17+ other hours in the day, have at it.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118415713#Comment_118415713

Would you be ok with Crystal Healing, angel consultation and Chakra alignment during mindfulness time?

Hotblack Desiato

Three words stand out there for me

I'm not religious

Yet there you are, forced to indoctrinate kids into a religion you don't believe in. It's a completely messed up system.

BettyBlue22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118420043#Comment_118420043

If that's what the school mandates, and if that's the patron's programme, then yes. Until the system changes, which I look forward to, then so be it.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118415713#Comment_118415713

So there's 90 minutes a year prescribed for teaching other religions.

How much time is prescribed for teaching Catholicism? Does this include Sacrament practices and priest visits?

How much time is prescribed for teaching Science?

I'm genuinely interested. It's a very long time since I was in National School.

BettyBlue22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118425918#Comment_118425918

The pdf of the religion curriculum is freely available online, it'll tell you more than I could.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290056#Comment_118290056

There are plenty of posters on this thread who seem to put an awful lot of effort into moaning about why the pesky Catholics won't go out and build ye the type of school ye want.

Why don't ye just band together and organise and put your effort into that. Fundraise and build your own school. There are plenty of supports available should ye all get off your collective arses and do something positive.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430374#Comment_118430374

Just had a look there. It doesn’t say how much time should be devoted to the teaching although it is 194 pages long so maybe I missed it.

Your post implied that you were a teacher and might know how long is spent on teaching religion per day as you mentioned "religion time"

That's all I really wanted to know.

Can you tell me that please?

byhookorbycrook

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430577#Comment_118430577

Under DES guidelines, 30 mins a day , in every school. In reality, in most schools , much less !

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430426#Comment_118430426

None of that nonsense is relevant to what I posted. So even though we have an excess of religious ethos schools (based on the census of the whole population, never mind the religious views of parents of 5 year olds) you think it's OK that within the last few years newly built schools are still being handed over to churches to control?

Educate Together are starting up more schools but it's a very slow process, the demand is way above what the Dept of Education will sanction.

Why should any group of parents have to fundraise to get a school, they pay their taxes same as any other parents do. Daft. Anyway, nothing can happen without Dept of Education sanction and if there are school places available (of any type) in your area they'll tell you to get lost.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430426#Comment_118430426

Maybe if the Catholic Church bodies would repay the >€1 billion owed under the redress scheme, maybe then there would be money to build some non-denominational schools?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431169#Comment_118431169

Strange isn't it? Bit of a contradiction no? Moaning about Catholic schools being built on State land "in recent years" but then putting forward the excuse that the Department won't fund any schools as there are excess places.

Do something positive with your life rather than being constantly bitter and putting your effort into trying to drag others down.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431746#Comment_118431746

Ah sure look, if all you have is some standard anti-Catholic tropes and slogans, it's no wonder that very little is actually done.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431945#Comment_118431945

Honestly, go back and look at your own swipes at parents who simply don't want their kids to be indoctrinated before you preaching on standard tropes and slogans.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432105#Comment_118432105

There are plenty of options for alternatives for you if you want. If you don't want to make the effort to avail of those, then you have the option to set up your own alternatives.

The reason that Catholic Schools are still being built is that they have proper systems and communities in place that drive forward these projects. The projects are often many many years long. It is unrealistic for you to expect them to do that, for you to sit back on your arse, and then jump up on their backs at the last minute after suddenly discovering what "you" want. I'm sure that other religious schools and communities have the same thing.

If you really believe in this whole thing, you can start by setting up actual committees in your area. Come up with realistic proposals and go through the long process. Bear in mind that by the time it comes to fruition, your own kids will have long left the school. So you need to be actually prepared to do it to make a change rather than just deciding that it suits your particular whim at a point in time and you expect it to be changed immediately. There are loads of Educate together and non-denominations schools in existence which show that it can be done, and will help you to do it.............if you actually want to put in the effort rather than perpetually moaning about it.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432158#Comment_118432158

Your advice is about thirty years too late. Been there, worn the t-shirt, seen the new school built, and very clear on the substantial difficulties involved. There's no reason for it to be that hard. Govt policy doesn't recognise the urgent need for more non-denom schools. We need policy and priorities, and urgent action. And I don't mean the cake sale and the sponsored walk - we're a bit past that stage now.

Hotblack Desiato

DT's "advice" is also pointless for anyone who doesn't live in an area that doesn't have a strongly growing population.

Unless Dept of Education decide a new school is needed in an area, there will be no new school, catholic protestant ET or otherwise.

In my area they just extended the existing catholic primary schools to cater for the places needed (enough to easily justify setting up an ET) but this was done without any consultation with parents in the area whatsoever.

The only other way to get a non-catholic school is divestment, but that's a dead duck and it's a policy designed to fail.

Contrary to DT's post, there are not "plenty of alternatives" and it's amazing how defensive some people get about the supposed right to indoctrinate the kids of non-catholics by stealth. Nobody is suggesting that any parent who wants their child to attend a catholic school should not be able to do so - it'll never happen.

And actually the school I had in mind, recently built by the State on State owned land and then handed over to a church to run isn't RC, it was handed over to the Church of Ireland (on the basis of non-discriminatory admission policy promises made to parents, which it took them all of two years to break). It doesn't matter which church is involved though.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433686#Comment_118433686

But sure then I'm happy for you. You have your alternate option. Which shows that the policies and systems are there and do work if the genuine need and want is there. If you want your family to attend that school, then now you can. If someone else wants to send their family to a local Jewish school (if there is one) then they can. If someone else wants to send their family to the local Catholic school (if there is one) then they can. I'd encourage positive solutions.

Most people though don't really care about how many schools are there - their main intention is to express their anti-Catholic bigotry through trying to obstruct anything they do. They'd sooner have no schools than have one Catholic one and ten non-Catholic ones. If you yourself just wanted a diferent type of school, then you should be happy. And you should help other posters on here to show them how to do it

BettyBlue22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432158#Comment_118432158

That's nonsense.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435775#Comment_118435775

Do you think the existing schools magically appeared out of thin air? 🤣

People did the work and set them up. If you want an alternative one, set it up. Don't be a scrounger existing only by leeching off the efforts of others