Religion and Engaging with the Teacher

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118452291#Comment_118452291

It would be helpful if you can point me towards the legislation that prevents any individual or organisation from setting up their own school. Thanks.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118452392#Comment_118452392

It would be more helpful if could point to examples of groups who HAVE set up their own schools and got the Department to take over funding, in say ,the past ten years.

Or is the whole country just lazy like me?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118452468#Comment_118452468

Here is a list of some schools which were set up: https://www.educatetogether.ie/all-schools-search/

All organisations are entitled to the same assistance from the State. Whether religious or not.

Now it would be great if you could send on the link to that statute I was asking for.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118452468#Comment_118452468

The State built these schools. Your proposed model doesn't apply to ET schools.

Now,are there any actual schools built under your build-it-yourself model?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118450873#Comment_118450873

Yes, you've told me something I already know and actually mentioned. Now why don't you withdraw the false and scurrilous comment you made blaming civil servants and their religious beliefs for this state of affairs?

@Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448975#Comment_118448975

Is that it? 4 schools? In 21 years? Out of how many schools that were opened? How does that compare to the number of schools opened under the auspices of Educate Together? How does it compare to the number of schools under management of ETBs, which are State bodies. While we might prefer there to be no Catholic schools opened at all, that number doesn't exactly support the contention made by @Hotblack Desiato that the conservative religious civil servants are doing anything to avoid giving patronage to Catholics.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118451398#Comment_118451398

As usual you make claims but never back them up.

The actual figures are below, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

As of 2021, mainstream post-primary schools numbered as follows:

Type of school Number (total: 731) Percentage of total

Catholic 345 47.2%

Multi-denominational 210 28.7%

Inter-denominational 151 20.6%

Church of Ireland 23 3.1%

Presbyterian 1 0.1%

Methodist 1 <0.1%

Jewish 1 <0.1%

Quaker 1 <0.1%

The inter-denominational schools (usually ETB) are both Catholic and Church of Ireland ethos due to historical reasons. They teach religion as fact during the school day so there is really no difference between them and the "official" Catholic (or CoI) schools.

BTW the only person who mentioned a law about building schools is yourself. Just more waffle and guff.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118452760#Comment_118452760

No. What's your explanation for the lack of progress? The government has a target of 400 multi-denominational primary schools by 2030 but is not looking at all likely to reach it (and that's really a very unambitious target given that there are currently over 3,100 primary schools).

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/progress-on-multi-denominational-schools-too-slow-1.4772503

The Programme for Government commits to improving parental choice by meeting a target of delivering 400 multi-denominational primary schools by 2030.

However, new figures show there are 164 multi-denominational schools compared with 2,750 Catholic primary schools.

There is great public demand for more ETs and most of the existing ones are heavily oversubscribed. The Dept of Education and successive ministers seem content to have the Catholic Church retain its stranglehold on primary education in this country as long as possible.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118452852#Comment_118452852

Thanks for confirming and admitting that I was correct and you were wrong. There are less Catholic secondary schools than non-Catholic ones. Which is precisely what I said. Your own figure is about 47% Catholic vs. 53% non-Catholic. I'd hope that we can agree that 47% is less than 53%?

Still waiting on this law that prevents any individual or organisation from setting up a school. It couldn't just be laziness now, could it?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118452924#Comment_118452924

Ah, it must be that all the civil servants are religious nuts, because of course this is Ireland, and there's not as much as a sniff of an alternative explanation. No-one could suggest for a second that we have shite politics and shite politicians, that allow taxpayers to pay for schools that then get handed over to privately-run operators. You'd be a complete gobshite to offer the hypothesis that we have a dodgy political system that threatens to hand over the national maternity hospital to religious ownership, that can't control the price of building a children's hospital, that couldn't run a cervical cancer screening scheme properly, and that can't even build the city of Dublin a few kilometres of public transport infrastructure. Only an inexperienced political imbecile would think that Ireland's political and governance system is a bit less than ideal because it can neither get public housing built people can rent affordably, nor private housing built that people can then buy at a reasonable price.

Yes, how silly of me not to realise that our politicians are world-class, our political system is top-drawer, our focus is always on the best strategic outcomes, our governance systems are able to iron out the problems, and of course our voters are really, really, really good at holding politicians to account on the vanishingly rare occasions that they might make a slight error.

How absolutely ****-witted of me not to realise how good all this stuff is, and how clever and far-sighted of you to realise and acknowledge how brilliant our politicians, governance and political systems all are.

In that context, the problem here must surely be that there's a few civil servants in Marlyboo Street who instead of sitting on their fat lazy useless bureaucratic arses waiting for their next pay rise are instead down on their knees cranking out decades of the Rosary. Amirite?

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118447327#Comment_118447327

You are either willfully obtuse or ignorant of my point. My point is Mickey Harte lost his daughter through a brutal murder and by virtue of his faith it has helped him endure. Barry McGuigan had far much more misfortune in his life some of which was documented on a recent Tommy Tiernan show. But again it is clear, that his religious faith has helped him endure such tragic misfortune.

Comments such as yours above speak of a poster with a clear agenda with goes way beyond the subject matter of this thread. But I sense I am not the first poster to point this out to you, thus far.

I have already pointed out that I neither consider myself religious, nor believe in God - but I would not knock people who find solace and benefit from it. Your hatred of all things religious (with misnomer stereotypes) which ironically has a religious fervor.

Have you got any advice for the OP at all? Or are you merely using this thread to shoehorn your agenda into it?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453135#Comment_118453135

Not gonna lie, I'm an out and out atheist, and for a variety of reasons I don't have any time for Mickey Harte regardless of his religious beliefs. But I do have time for faith and for people of faith, and while I can't share in what they believe I have seen more than once how their belief can sustain them. For me there's a world of difference between holding firm to your world view and your philosophy versus naked hatred towards people with other faith systems. The former is being steadfast, and can be respected; the latter is being sectarian, and should not.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118452976#Comment_118452976

Try reading a post before hitting Reply. Not all of the 53% are actualy non-catholic. And you're the only one who mentioned a law about building schools, so you are talking to yourself.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453559#Comment_118453559

Nope, as I said, you don't get to arbitrarily make up your own interpretations and merge separate categories to suit your own nonsense. Try reading it yourself. Official figures are there in black and white - 47% Catholic. Catholics attending a school does not make it a "Catholic School". You might not be aware, but in simple maths, the total is 100%. So if "X" is 47% then "not X" is 53%. And 53% is more than 47%.

You keep going on about how you are prevented from making any effort to set up a school in your area. You already admitted there was excess demand in your area but you and your buddies hadn't gotten off your arse to have anything in motion and so existing schools were extended. I advised you you be prepared for the next time that happens. At the very least, it takes very little effort to have some community meetings to get proof of demand. But you keep going on about being prevented from doing anyting positive. So I was asking you what law prevents you from doing so. I already know the answer is that there is not one - apart from the law of laziness.

You don't get to push your beliefs onto anyone else. Live and let live. If other want to go to a Flying Spaghetti Monster school, that is their choice. If they have a Flying Spaghetti Monster school up and running, you don't get to steal it from them just because you personally don't like it

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453889#Comment_118453889

Don't forget to come up with some examples of schools that have been built over the past ten years or so using the process that you keep suggesting please?

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453188#Comment_118453188

Exactly, and those who are religious the majority are decent people whether it because of their religion is another debate. But IMO I think even if the OP let his/kids partake in religion etc. If they chose not to carry on all the bells and whistles stuff - or be a lapsed a carte Catholic in future no harm either.

In my view those who are religious and not the flag waving kind are really engaging in a form or 'mindfulness' and caring for their neighbours etc to their fellow man. That is what religions boil down to. It is just the ancillary stuff that is different.

Obviously there are fanatics that ruin it for the decent people who belong to xyz religion. But fundamentally religion is about people being decent to one another. And for kids it's no harm been taught that basis IMO anyway. I have not read the whole thread. But was the issue of homeschooling discussed by the OP or other posters? I would be interested in looking at any debate on that as it could be an alternate option for the OP. Obvious pros and cons. Particularly with covid times. In any case I assume the OP had no issue in getting the children exempt from religion class?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454256#Comment_118454256

Come on man. You can't be being spoon fed all the time. Make a bit of effort. I asked you about the law preventing you or any other organisation from setting up your own school and you responded with a question, which I answered, and I then re-asked my original question. Which you again try to ignore by asking another question.

You need to put in a bit of effort yourself. Most people move on from the "moan moan moan until someone gives me what I want" stage by primary school

Hotblack Desiato

You don't get to push your beliefs onto anyone else.

That's exactly what the catholic church is (ab)using our education system to do.

BTW non-catholics don't want to push beliefs onto anyone else. They simply want an education system which treats their kids and everyone else's equally and fairly. Not much to ask in a supposedly developed, supposedly non-theocratic country.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453188#Comment_118453188

Harte is being sectarian. He used his position within the GAA to push his specific religion's beliefs. Including telling people living in another jurisdiction how they should vote. He even forced Catholic belief and practices onto his playing squad. In a divided society in Northern Ireland where sporting organisations are supposed to be trying to build bridges across the sectarian divide, that's totally unacceptable behaviour. Harte is fully entitled to his religious beliefs but, as I said, using his GAA position to impose his beliefs upon people was wrong.

Hotblack Desiato

Letter in today's Irish Times:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/multidenominational-schools-1.4773122

Sir, – Ten years into the school divestment process launched with much fanfare by former minister for education Ruairí Quinn in 2012, one might have expected the Government and Department of Education to finally admit defeat (“Progress on multidenominational schools too ‘slow’”, News, January 10th).

Instead, both seem wedded to the fiction that this failed initiative remains a credible and appropriate response to the tectonic shifts that have taken place in Irish society over the last 30 years with respect to religious belief and practice. It is not.

The Government’s stated target of 400 multidenominational schools by 2030 is both hopelessly optimistic and woefully inadequate.

According to the official figures, 20 schools have been divested in the last 10 years but another 236 schools must be divested within the next eight.

This assumes that one accepts the department’s rather flexible understanding of the term “multidenominational”, which includes many schools that are actually interdenominational as well as others oxymoronically described as “multidenominational with a Catholic ethos”, which offer religious instruction during the school day.

Even if the Government’s target is reached on schedule, however, it would still represent only about 12 per cent of all primary schools.

With half of all marriages already being celebrated in non-religious ceremonies, we are trying to drag our education system into the last century, not this one.

For many years now the Government has stressed the importance of listening to the voices of parents, yet it is allowing these same voices to be silenced by refusing to publish the results of numerous parental surveys.

It has also allowed small rural schools to be “reconfigured” behind closed doors without any parental consultation whatsoever. Parents around the country are being ignored, whether they are surveyed or not.

For their part, far from supporting the reconfiguration of patronage, the bishops appear intent on leveraging the process to extract concessions from the State, thereby frustrating the efforts of a growing number of non-religious families to assert their human and constitutional rights.

Education Equality believes that religious instruction and worship should be offered on an optional basis after school hours to those who want it, rather than being imposed through the State curriculum on those who don’t.

While we have not yet had the opportunity to make our case to Minister for Education Norma Foley in person, we would greatly appreciate if her Government would drop the divestment charade in favour of something a little more substantive.

It’s getting embarrassing. – Yours, etc,

DAVID

GRAHAM,

Communications Officer,

Education Equality,

Malahide,

Co Dublin.

The bolded part is what Educate Together already do, and you'd have to question why anyone could find it objectionable unless their intent is to try to impose beliefs onto children against the wishes of their parents.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454418#Comment_118454418

So the honest answer is there's no such schools that have been developed using the process you're proposing. It's not a real proposal, just a distraction, a veil to hide behind to distract attention from the lack of provision for non-catholic families.

I've no idea what your obsession with 'the law to prevent' is all about. There are no laws to prevent lots of things. There's no law to prevent me from building a clown college and asking Dept Ed to fund it, but it is still not going to happen.

Your repeated proposal for people to DIY their own school is not a realistic proposal, just a distraction.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454532#Comment_118454532

Did you try calling the guards when you were forced to send your kids to a Catholic school against your will? Was it done at gunpoint? Were the kids ripped out of your arms every single morning? Did ya not even maybe think about moving house and not telling them where you had moved to?

I would have thought that the local priests would have had other things to do than arrive at your doorstep every morning locked and loaded, but sure maybe they didn't. I'm sure that you are indeed so special that they really really really wanted your kids to attend classes in their school

I wouldn't have much fear of a priest myself, but maybe you're just not able to stand up for yourself? Perhaps some self-defense classes would build up your confidence.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118455048#Comment_118455048

So are you giving up on the 'just build your own school' solution now that we've confirmed that it is totally unrealistic and impractical? Good to have made some progress anyway.

Shall we remind ourselves of the 'many other options' you've suggested

• drive to the other side of the city or county to attend the ET school (where you won't get a place because you're outside the catchment area)
• move house to attend school
• keep their heads down, say their prayers, join in the the nativity to attend school
• start off a 20 year project to fundraise and buy land so that their five year old can attend school

They're not really great options, in fairness.

Are you still going to keep up that Trumpian tactic of telling people they can't impose their beliefs on others so that you can continue to impose your beliefs on others?

Cyrus

It beggars belief how worked up people are getting over this,

It really is that simple, if you have a massive issue with the church then make the sacrifice to inconvenience yourself by selecting a school thats further away that meets your approval,

If like most of the rest of parents you dont really care one way or the other and just want your kid to get a decent education send them to the best local school and have your own conversation with them about religion.

Does anyone really think the the core tenets of catholicism (or indeed most other religions) are that bad? Mass and the rest of the mumbo jumbo isnt for me, but treat others as you would have them treat you seems pretty reasonable.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454599#Comment_118454599

Your post makes sense, though I've no idea why you typed it in reply to me, as it has nothing to do with what I posted.

On a separate note, you still haven't withdrawn the scurrilous and unfounded comment you made blaming public servants for the slow progress being made on the issue of religious patronage of schools. You really should do that, because otherwise it just looks a bit hot-headed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118455628#Comment_118455628

move house to attend school

That's what we did 20 years ago, but it's unreasonable to expect people to do it now. In any case, that would mean that renters, including local authority renters, would be completely disadvantaged.

drive to the other side of the city or county to attend the ET school (where you won't get a place because you're outside the catchment area)

That's what a lot of parents in my son's school did, but once again it's unreasonable to expect people to do it now.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118455831#Comment_118455831

It really isn't that simple. Two families live next door to each other and pay the same taxes to fund an education system. One of them gets whatever convenience and choice they like, because they're the "right" religion. The other has to either uproot themselves and move, or else go to significant bother, inconvenience and cost for them and their children because they're the "wrong" religion. That's not just bigotry, that's State-sponsored bigotry.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118456256#Comment_118456256

Thats not true though, you dont have to be catholic to go to a catholic school. Nor do you have to be COI to be accepted into a COI school.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118456228#Comment_118456228

Current catchment area admission criteria are more stringent than they were in the past, so it is less likely to be an option than before.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118456314#Comment_118456314

But you DO need to accept that the designated religion of the State funded school will be deeply embedded in school activities, including regular prayers, regular religion classes (daily, according to primary school syllabus), regular school masses, regular religious music events, christmas nativity play.

So if you're not within the designated religion, you are required to sit through activities that have no relevance to you, and you are separated from your fellow students for a range of school events. 2nd class citizens, basically.